H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Engineer

Major
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

This is crazy

JF-17 Block II, JF-17B
J-10B, J-10C
J-11D,
J-15B
JH-7B
J-16
J-21
J-21 Naval?
J-20
J-20 Naval
H-18?
H-20

Why so many redundant projects? Why does China need a JF-17B AND a J-16? Why need an H-18 AND H-20?

JF-17 and its derivatives are made for Pakistan, not made for China.

There is no concrete evidence for existence of J-10C, JH-7B, and J-20 Naval.

J-15 is the only aircraft that is capable of taking off from Liaoning right now.

J-11D seems to be another designation for J-16.

J-21 is a private project, not an official project oversee by General Arms Department.

H-18 and H-20 would serve tactical and strategic needs, respectively.

I'd argue J-16 and JH-7B may fill the same role, and I don't think there's a need for a J-11D either.
But every other project seems valid. In fact H-18, if it is a long range, stealthy, supersonic striker, may prove to be among the most crucial and useful of the above.

A few of the above projects may not reach production anyway.
J-16 is meant to be a replacement for Su-30 in China's inventory. If JH-7B and J-16 have duplicated roles, then China would not have acquired JH-7B and Su-30 at the same time.

From what I have read, Chinese military view the JH-7B purely as bomber even though they called it fighter-bomber. J-16/Su-30 are true fighter bombers. This would explain why JH-7B replace Q-5 whereas Su-30 replace J-7.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

new generations of planes get heavier. especially including this recent jump with added stealth.
someone compared f15 and f22 as being of similar size. that's very much not the case. meters mean little in aviation. weight means a lot more. and f22a is 50% heavier/bigger than f15c. f35 is again a plane that is going to be a true role successor to f16. it is over 50% heavier than f16.

Agreed. This only serves to add to my point why I do not think H-18 would be suitable to be called a JH-7 successor. Given it could be nearly a third longer than JH-7, along with the added weight of using modern aerodynamics and stealth shaping, it could very well be up to 3 times heavier than a JH-7



i put 50% bigger striker than f111 as top limit, based on the recent pixellated drawing. but plane could be lighter. 20-50% heavier plane would work out to 55-70 tons mtow. that is, on average, two thirds of h6 weight class. so it cant really be regarded as true replacement nor peer airplane.

Well discussion of H-18's role would be purely dependent on its final size.
If it is 30 meters long I think it could definitely be in H-6's MTOW (or at least earlier versions of H-6, i.e.: 80 tons).

If it were 50% larger than F-111, that would mean a 30m length. F-111 has MTOW of 45 tons. You said yourself that new generation stealth aircraft were usually heavier than similar sized older generation aircraft. An F-111 sized stealth striker could well be 50% heavier than F-111 (using the F-22-15 and F-35-16 relationship as a guideline). A plane 50% larger than F-111 and also boasting modern design may end up being even heavier.

But again, let's wait for photos to determine the plane's final size.



which is exactly why there seem to be two projects. because difference between supersonic striker and subsonic flying wing can't be just 20-30 %. That wouldnt make economic sense. That's why i expect the supersonic plane to be closer to 60 tons, and flying wing to be 100 tons or more. 100+ tons would make for a proper h6 replacement. whereas all the tech in the world cant make a 60 ton supersonic plane more fuel efficient than h6k. h6k would still outrange it, as it doesnt need to be designed around supersonic dash.

I don't think H-18 will be an H-6K replacement -- if anything I expect H-6K production to continue well into this decade.
Its simple design and modern avionics and long endurance will make it a useful asset in most situations.

However H-18 would make an excellent replacement for older H-6Ms and Gs.

One's prediction of H-18's weight is also dependent on H-20's weight, for the two shouldn't overlap in capability as you correctly mention. Therefore by association, if H-18 weighs 80 tons or more, then H-20 must also probably be a larger aircraft, which is probably a difficult notion to stomach. H-20 would thus be the PLA's ultimate long stick capable of truly enormous ranges (but probably produced in small numbers), while H-6K and H-18 took up the brunt of operations, H-6K especially.
Then again, only two years ago the notion of the PLA producing a stealthy supersonic bomber would have been preposterous!
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

which is exactly why there seem to be two projects. because difference between supersonic striker and subsonic flying wing can't be just 20-30 %. That wouldnt make economic sense. That's why i expect the supersonic plane to be closer to 60 tons, and flying wing to be 100 tons or more. 100+ tons would make for a proper h6 replacement. whereas all the tech in the world cant make a 60 ton supersonic plane more fuel efficient than h6k. h6k would still outrange it, as it doesnt need to be designed around supersonic dash.

One's prediction of H-18's weight is also dependent on H-20's weight, for the two shouldn't overlap in capability as you correctly mention. Therefore by association, if H-18 weighs 80 tons or more, then H-20 must also probably be a larger aircraft, which is probably a difficult notion to stomach. H-20 would thus be the PLA's ultimate long stick capable of truly enormous ranges (but probably produced in small numbers), while H-6K and H-18 took up the brunt of operations, H-6K especially.
]

Not to say China's there yet or going for this particular example, but with regards to a supersonic bomber that can match the range of the H-6K, the B-1, Tu-22, and Tu-144 all disagree. This is ultimately a question of what the available engine technology is. With two WS-10/AL-31 thrust class engines, a hypothetical supersonic bomber would have about 140~160 kN of military thrust available, and 260 of kN at full AB. With WS-15 thrust class engines (a stretch to use until we have confirmation of its success), available military thrust goes up to 180-200 kN of military thrust and maybe 300+ kN on full AB. An 80-100 ton supersonic bomber with enough range to hit the second island chain is entirely doable with better engines than the D-30KP.

Furthermore, the one image we have of the potential flying wing indicates four engines. If each of those is a WS-10, we could be looking at something with a mtow that is far above 100 tons.

I think you might be underestimating the weight classes of these potential bombers. What we're seeing, if both these bombers materialize, is the PLAAF's attempts to completely transform what their force composition looks like and drastically expand what they're capable of. Personally, I'm still skeptical about China developing both a flying wing and a supersonic bomber, because that would almost categorically necessitate that one be a significant weight and range class above the other, and that doesn't quite fit with where I think China's security interests and needs would extend to within the next decade. We'll see.
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

This is crazy

JF-17 Block II, JF-17B
J-10B, J-10C
J-11D,
J-15B
JH-7B
J-16
J-21
J-21 Naval?
J-20
J-20 Naval
H-18?
H-20

Why so many redundant projects? Why does China need a JF-17B AND a J-16? Why need an H-18 AND H-20?

It helps reinforce the engineers' job security.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

It helps reinforce the engineers' job security.
Could also be seen as an attempt to expand and enhance human capital, particularly in knowledge and expertise. Maybe half the projects end up being wasted/not coming to fruition, but now you have a larger pool of people with the hands on experience.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

Furthermore, the one image we have of the potential flying wing indicates four engines. If each of those is a WS-10, we could be looking at something with a mtow that is far above 100 tons.

I think an 80 ton MTOW for H-18 is realistic.

But your'e right, a 4 WS-10 flying wing will definitely be well over 100 tons and be in B-2 territory.


---

I think you might be underestimating the weight classes of these potential bombers. What we're seeing, if both these bombers materialize, is the PLAAF's attempts to completely transform what their force composition looks like and drastically expand what they're capable of. Personally, I'm still skeptical about China developing both a flying wing and a supersonic bomber, because that would almost categorically necessitate that one be a significant weight and range class above the other, and that doesn't quite fit with where I think China's security interests and needs would extend to within the next decade. We'll see.


If we look at the PLA's future air force without the lens of a US style force structure, I think H-18 and H-20 both make a lot of sense.
One of the limitations of small/medium sized stealth fighters is their short range, for they must rely wholly on internal fuel and payload to retain their VLO. Just look at F-22 and F-35. That is why CAC has gone for J-20 with a much greater internal volume. They know that the missions PLAAF wants to fight in future will require long range and high endurance.

In that sense, one has to wonder whether the PLAAF needs an F-35 sized stealth fighter, when future 4+ fighters like J-10B/C and new flanker variants can do the job of short/medium range A2A combat just as well, especially if integrated into a wider AEWC network and with frontline J-20 support.
The best site to fight an enemy aircraft is when they're on the ground. Therefore I propose that the PLAAF may reject procuring large numbers of J-21 akin to USAF procuring of F-35, and instead use that cash to buy more J-10B/C, J-16/J-11D (which would probably all be magnitudes cheaper), as well as H-18 and H-20, and also larger numbers of J-20.

If both J-20 and J-21 are acquired by the PLAAF, they will probably end up with similar J-20 numbers to USAF -- so not that high. If they can reject the many hundreds of J-21, and settle for a non-stealth aircraft, they can instead use the savings to produce more long range J-20s, H-18s and H-20s.
With its long endurance, J-20 can conduct air superiority missions well beyond the first island chain. H-18 may indeed be capable of carrying long range interception as well, if equipped with AAM and a large radar. Both H-18 and H-20 will be able to hit airbases where US "short range" F-35 and F-22s are based, as well as striking at bases where they could station air refuellers. Without aerial refuelling, USAF F-35s and F-22s become far less of a threat, and indeed USN carrier based aircraft will be hard pressed to strike at mainland targets as well (all long range CVN sorties currently require USAF tanking, and this won't change in the future given F-35 is such a small plane).

Sure, J-10B/C, J-16 etc will be challenged by regional air forces with their own F-35s or stealth fighters. But with a continuing modern IADS on the mainland, as well as the short range of F-35, Japanese F3 and KFX, all potential opposing stealth fighters will be hard pressed to make a dent into the PLA's vast strategic depth. If anything, PLAAF 4+ generation fighters, supported by a massive PLA AEWC network, along with a small number of high end J-20s in frontline support, could probably contest the skies well into the first island chain -- and that's assuming H-18s, H-20s do not strike at airfields first, and assuming the lion's share of J-20s are not engaged.

So ultimately the H-18/H-20 will provide PLAAF a capability they have in some degree at present -- the ability to strike at regional targets with precision and high degree of success. Today that is accomplished by mostly IRBMs and LACMs. In future, that force will likely grow, but will also be supplemented by more flexible and harder to detect stealth bombers with their own stand off LACMs.


It would be a bold decision to make to deviate from a proven "high, low" fighter fleet (F-15/F-16, F-22/F-35, Su-27/Mig-29 etc) of past decades, to a "high, high, superlow" fighter/bomber fleet (J-20, H-18/H-20, J-10B/C/J-16), but I believe it would be the most beneficial one for PLAAF. At cursory glance, a PLAAF of the mid 30s should aim for:
400 J-20s
100+ H-18s
40 H-20s
120+ (?) legacy H-6Ks
800-1000 J-10 and flanker variants

All supported by a high number of AEWC, tankers, and ELINT aircraft.

Otherwise they will have to give up much of their J-20s, H-18s and H-20s for a lower end stealth fighter like J-21, which simply wont' have the range and endurance to be where it needs to be.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

Mostly agree with the above, but I'm not completely sold on the J-20 has long legs argument, simply because we don't know whether a greater volume translates to more range without knowing how efficient the WS-15s will be. I'm pretty sure the PLAAF still hasn't decided on the J-21/31 for the precisely the reasons mentioned above.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

Mostly agree with the above, but I'm not completely sold on the J-20 has long legs argument, simply because we don't know whether a greater volume translates to more range without knowing how efficient the WS-15s will be. I'm pretty sure the PLAAF still hasn't decided on the J-21/31 for the precisely the reasons mentioned above.

I'd want to agree with you on the WS-15 efficiency part, but that opens up a whole can of worms regarding whether everything from chinese materials to electronics technologies are up to par with western equivalents. For instance, should we also question if J-20's RAM is inferior to F-22s or F-35s, should we believe that the aircraft's internal structure is heavier on a volume basis? etc etc

Chances are WS-15 and F119 aren't exactly efficient, but if I had to stake a null hypothesis I'd argue chances are they're not significantly different.

So in that sense, I want to argue that J-20's greater internal volume will confer greater range than F-22.

But even if J-20 only had equal range to F-22, that would still be more than J-21's (or we can argue that by association, J-21 should also have a lower range than the similarly sized F-35 simply because its WS-13s are also "less efficient" for some mysterious reason), and thus PLAAF will have even less reason to buy J-21, and more reason to buy more J-20s.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

I'd want to agree with you on the WS-15 efficiency part, but that opens up a whole can of worms regarding whether everything from chinese materials to electronics technologies are up to par with western equivalents. For instance, should we also question if J-20's RAM is inferior to F-22s or F-35s, should we believe that the aircraft's internal structure is heavier on a volume basis? etc etc

Chances are WS-15 and F119 aren't exactly efficient, but if I had to stake a null hypothesis I'd argue chances are they're not significantly different.

So in that sense, I want to argue that J-20's greater internal volume will confer greater range than F-22.

But even if J-20 only had equal range to F-22, that would still be more than J-21's (or we can argue that by association, J-21 should also have a lower range than the similarly sized F-35 simply because its WS-13s are also "less efficient" for some mysterious reason), and thus PLAAF will have even less reason to buy J-21, and more reason to buy more J-20s.
Don't mind me too much on that point. Holding out that extra bit of skepticism, at least until we find out more about the engine. It would also help if we know what the SFC of the Taihang was.
 

FarkTypeSoldier

Junior Member
Re: PLAAF new JH-XX / H-X bomber soncepts

Good day...

Some CG pictures. These are high res pics.

Enjoy.

9q0t.jpg



9gx7.jpg



foec.jpg
 
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