H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Blitzo

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Isn't the H-20 program supposed to be of a top-secret status?

How can the company so casually release these kinds of images (unless allowed by the PLA ofc)

However, that the company so openly showcases the plane it might mean that they have made good progress in their R&D and that they confident in what they have

Do you think those renditions are anything more than just educated guesses?

Actually no, a better question -- why does that person think "modern weaponry" would be able to depict something like H-20s detailed true design beyond just educated guesses?
Seriously.
 

Blitzo

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Aerospace industry that successfully built and flown about dozen of pure flying wing UAVs now needs foldable tails for a much larger platform. Sure.

I could sort of see the benefit of having foldable tails on an aircraft as large as H-20 is expected to be, if the PLAAF are just being more conservative/higher standards than their smaller flying wing UAV counterparts. Just given the greater cost and value of each individual H-20.

That said I'm not convinced H-20 will have folding tails, nor do I think that it will necessarily look like what is depicted in the magazine if it does end up with folding tails.
 

Appix

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I could sort of see the benefit of having foldable tails on an aircraft as large as H-20 is expected to be, if the PLAAF are just being more conservative/higher standards than their smaller flying wing UAV counterparts. Just given the greater cost and value of each individual H-20.

That said I'm not convinced H-20 will have folding tails, nor do I think that it will necessarily look like what is depicted in the magazine if it does end up with folding tails.

Do we have hints what the H-20 will look like at this stage?
 

Blitzo

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Do we have hints what the H-20 will look like at this stage?

The consensus for a while now, is a flying wing of some sort, likely with four engines.
But, that's about as specific as we can confidently say.


It's both specific and very, very vague.

One only needs to think briefly to consider all the variety of variations of flying wings (even pure flying wings) there could be.
E.g. cranked kite versus continuous leading edge, number of trailing edges, any folding tails or not, specific configuration of different angles, weapons by configuration, air intake geometry, etc.
And those are all things we won't get much solid information on until it emerges.
 

Blitzo

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Uneducated guesses I'd say. A schoolboy who ever read any popular literature on stealth principles won't draw that BS, not talking of Beihang first year student.

Yeah lol, that question was 100% rhetorical.

Lots of odd design choices in it, even if we wanted to suspend disbelief and entertain the idea of them adopting folding wings.
 

ougoah

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Aerospace industry that successfully built and flown about dozen of pure flying wing UAVs now needs foldable tails for a much larger platform. Sure.

Because variable geometry is awesome and is actually a step further. Future generation fighters and UCAVs are almost definitely going to incorporate variable geo as part of distinguishing major features. I'd say variable geometry (not just swing wing) is going to be the core of next gen kinematic performance side tech including range improvements which this is really going to be a great part of anyway.

I really don't understand why some members are refusing the believe that H-20 might actually be variable geometry. Some are refusing to believe Chinese military aviation is incapable of building a flying wing design because it's presumably hard. Wrong. It's not hard and China's done several known flying wing prototypes and flying, operational flying wing aircraft. None of them are piloted though. It's a mistake to assume H-20 not being only flying wing means it's somehow "worse".

If we assume the hints that there are variable geometry wings/stabilisers, I would consider that quite a step beyond just doing a B-2 design copy. The variable geometry has been hinted at making the aircraft much more controllable for take offs and landings. It becomes a plane flying wing when cruising. It's possibly even more flexible with variable geometry. This aspect only improves the design over one that doesn't have a variable geometry design but with weight and complexity penalties of course. Maybe it becomes much better for slow speed, low altitude flight and makes landing safer and easier? While still retaining all the benefits of flying wing ... since you know... it is a flying wing when those control surfaces move to align. It's basically having the best of both worlds. Flying wings should be easy for China since they've been publicly flying at least one (GJ-11 prototype) since 2013 and probably have been flying them not so publicly well before that.
 

NiuBiDaRen

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Because variable geometry is awesome and is actually a step further. Future generation fighters and UCAVs are almost definitely going to incorporate variable geo as part of distinguishing major features. I'd say variable geometry (not just swing wing) is going to be the core of next gen kinematic performance side tech including range improvements which this is really going to be a great part of anyway.

I really don't understand why some members are refusing the believe that H-20 might actually be variable geometry. Some are refusing to believe Chinese military aviation is incapable of building a flying wing design because it's presumably hard. Wrong. It's not hard and China's done several known flying wing prototypes and flying, operational flying wing aircraft. None of them are piloted though. It's a mistake to assume H-20 not being only flying wing means it's somehow "worse".

If we assume the hints that there are variable geometry wings/stabilisers, I would consider that quite a step beyond just doing a B-2 design copy. The variable geometry has been hinted at making the aircraft much more controllable for take offs and landings. It becomes a plane flying wing when cruising. It's possibly even more flexible with variable geometry. This aspect only improves the design over one that doesn't have a variable geometry design but with weight and complexity penalties of course. Maybe it becomes much better for slow speed, low altitude flight and makes landing safer and easier? While still retaining all the benefits of flying wing ... since you know... it is a flying wing when those control surfaces move to align. It's basically having the best of both worlds. Flying wings should be easy for China since they've been publicly flying at least one (GJ-11 prototype) since 2013 and probably have been flying them not so publicly well before that.
I suppose variable-sweep wing is also a variant of variable geometry, just not the most advanced kind of variable geometry the new generation of aircraft would look to incorporate?
 

Blitzo

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Because variable geometry is awesome and is actually a step further. Future generation fighters and UCAVs are almost definitely going to incorporate variable geo as part of distinguishing major features. I'd say variable geometry (not just swing wing) is going to be the core of next gen kinematic performance side tech including range improvements which this is really going to be a great part of anyway.

IMO that is a very questionable claim and greatly overreaches.


In any case, this part is off topic and frankly you are talking about a different thing to what flateric is saying.
If H-20 includes folding tails in some form, there is a big difference between that and what potential variable geometry technology (if any at all) might be present in next generation fighters or UCAVs.



I really don't understand why some members are refusing the believe that H-20 might actually be variable geometry. Some are refusing to believe Chinese military aviation is incapable of building a flying wing design because it's presumably hard. Wrong. It's not hard and China's done several known flying wing prototypes and flying, operational flying wing aircraft. None of them are piloted though. It's a mistake to assume H-20 not being only flying wing means it's somehow "worse".

If we assume the hints that there are variable geometry wings/stabilisers, I would consider that quite a step beyond just doing a B-2 design copy. The variable geometry has been hinted at making the aircraft much more controllable for take offs and landings. It becomes a plane flying wing when cruising. It's possibly even more flexible with variable geometry. This aspect only improves the design over one that doesn't have a variable geometry design but with weight and complexity penalties of course. Maybe it becomes much better for slow speed, low altitude flight and makes landing safer and easier? While still retaining all the benefits of flying wing ... since you know... it is a flying wing when those control surfaces move to align. It's basically having the best of both worlds. Flying wings should be easy for China since they've been publicly flying at least one (GJ-11 prototype) since 2013 and probably have been flying them not so publicly well before that.

I am strongly against the idea of calling this depicted configuration "variable geometry" because that creates a different impression to what is being shown/thought of.
"Folding tails" is more accurate, because "variable geometry" or "variable geometry tails" both lead to different, less specific visions than what it is meant to show.


As for the skepticism towards the idea of having folding tails, the skepticism is there because of the idea that China has designed and built and flown multiple flying wing aircraft (UAVs) in the past, therefore there is a belief that the requisite flight control systems for a flying wing in all phases of its flight can be sensibly derived/developed for a full size flying wing bomber.
IMO that above is not an unreasonable position to take.

However, the reason for why folding tails might be seen as desirable by the PLA for H-20 as a full size flying wing bomber even if they have mastered the flight control systems for flying wings, is if they are extra cautious and placing higher margins for safety and to reduce risk in the lower speed and altitude phases.

Ultimately I think the skepticism is not unjustified, and simultaneously the idea of having folding tails is also not beyond reproach.
But we have no confidence to definitively rule either one out (or rule one in) at this stage.
 
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ougoah

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IMO that is a very questionable claim and greatly overreaches.


In any case, this part is off topic and frankly you are talking about a different thing to what flateric is saying.
If H-20 includes folding tails in some form, there is a big difference between that and what potential variable geometry technology (if any at all) might be present in next generation fighters or UCAVs.





I am strongly against the idea of calling this depicted configuration "variable geometry" because that creates a different impression to what is being shown/thought of.
"Folding tails" is more accurate, because "variable geometry" or "variable geometry tails" both lead to different, less specific visions than what it is meant to show.


As for the skepticism towards the idea of having folding tails, the skepticism is there because of the idea that China has designed and built and flown multiple flying wing aircraft (UAVs) in the past, therefore there is a belief that the requisite flight control systems for a flying wing in all phases of its flight can be sensibly derived/developed for a full size flying wing bomber.
IMO that above is not an unreasonable position to take.

However, the reason for why folding tails might be seen as desirable by the PLA for H-20 as a full size flying wing bomber even if they have mastered the flight control systems for flying wings, is if they are extra cautious and placing higher margins for safety and to reduce risk in the lower speed and altitude phases.

Ultimately I think the skepticism is not unjustified, and simultaneously the idea of having folding tails is also not beyond reproach.
But we have no confidence to definitively rule either one out (or rule one in) at this stage.

I'm not equating hypothetical folding tails on H-20 with any potential to exploit that particular piece of technology on future UAVs. Variable geometry usually enhances an airframe. I mean that's the whole point. I'm just saying that you don't need a "traditional", non-variable flying wing design. Folding tails isn't a big deal. If anything it could only be better than applying non-variable design on H-20. Anyway I already said all of that was hypothetical because this little detail seems to have worried some people for mysterious reasons.

Again the point is that folding tail doesn't mean the aircraft is less advanced and less capable. It is more advanced and can only be a net positive effect because it ought to be simple enough not to apply it. One reason offered in the past was due to low speed and low altitude control. During typical flights between landing and take off, they can simply make any moving section align and hence it preserves all those LO characteristics but with the added benefit of being able to handle low speed, low altitude controls even better than without a variable section. What I don't get is why such a hinted feature is considered a departure from what fanboys consider the best outcome for this project.
 
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