Global Powers Economic and Military influence throughout History

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

solarz said:

I see you conveniently left out the colonization of America, the wiping out of entire civilizations, the slave trade, the Opium War, etc. etc. Environmental degradation is the least of evils on the Europeans' path to power.

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They are indeed, a stain on the history of the European, however I considered "Imperilism" and "Colonisation", too significant topics to be treated as adjuncts in this debate and if I had we would have gone too far OT, and attracted the attention of the mods.

@ VESICLES

I think you are applying different parameters to both parties.
The "Great Leap" may have been carried out by a government with a different ideology, but it was still an attempt to industrialise.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

They are indeed, a stain on the history of the European, however I considered "Imperilism" and "Colonisation", too significant topics to be treated as adjuncts in this debate and if I had we would have gone too far OT, and attracted the attention of the mods.

@ VESICLES

I think you are applying different parameters to both parties.
The "Great Leap" may have been carried out by a government with a different ideology, but it was still an attempt to industrialise.

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It's not OT at all. How do you think the European powers gathered the wealth necessary for their industrial revolution? You are here complaining about China's lax labor laws, when the Europeans built their industrial revolution on the backs of slaves and workers so down-trodden that they spawned communism.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

solarz said:

It's not OT at all. How do you think the European powers gathered the wealth necessary for their industrial revolution? You are here complaining about China's lax labor laws, when the Europeans built their industrial revolution on the backs of slaves and workers so down-trodden that they spawned communism.

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I can't think of one European country that welcomed communism.

As regards the US I think you combining the founding of a nation with the period of industrialisation.
If we were to study the human cost of Chinas expansion from its ancient roots to its present day size, it also would'nt be very pretty.

If I remember a little of American history, slave labour was well gone, before the true part of the industrial revolution took place in America.

When the industrial revolution took place in England, there were organisations, and individuals who campaigned against the injustices and work conditions, and these aims were eventually achieved.
In China similar organisations and people, attract unwelcome attention of the authorities and..............ahem?????


Once again I dont think just because the West did it, its alright for China to follow suit.


Anyway I think the gist of the thread was whether the West was being totally unrealistic in its expectations of Chinas economic policy.

While its understable that you may have emotional ties to China, hence being prepared to overlook her warts in this area so to speak, I don't. In fact my life is in the west, and if Chinas economic policies become a threat to the economic well being of myself and my country and all other she trades with, then I dont have a problem with adopting policies to counter them.

Even if it means having to play "dirty pool" At the end of the day its self interest first.

Having said that Ive never been a supporter of free trade, and not too concerned if it fails and we adopt a protectionist outlook. Futhermore I dont have a problem with increased prices, as long as some good came from it.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

I can't think of one European country that welcomed communism.

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I think what he meant was that the terrifying conditions in Europe during that time inspired the idea of communism. This is a fact.

bladerunner said:

While its understable that you may have emotional ties to China, hence being prepared to overlook her warts in this area so to speak, I don't. In fact my life is in the west, and if Chinas economic policies become a threat to the economic well being of myself and my country and all other she trades with, then I dont have a problem with adopting policies to counter them.

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Emotional ties may be good or bad. Ask anyone with a tie in China if they have been on the wrong end of CCP's policies. I will guarantee you that close to 100% will say YES. If there is an emotional tie, it should be a bad taste in our mouths. Only those people who have no real experience with China tend to believe that all Chinese have this warm and fuzzy feeling toward CCP. I'll tell NO.

What I'm arguing here is HOW other nations should treat the "China problem", NOT "if" and NOT "when", but "how". Like I said in my original post, simply closing the door to trade to China won't solve the problem. I see many people say "I will have no problem adapting policies to counter China". You can yell the rhetoric all day long, but is that going to help you keep your job? Let's not forget that most of these "Chinese imports" are actually NOT Chinese products. They are Western products made in China. If the tax of Chinese imports is too high, these companies will simply move to another poor country. Let's also not forget there are way more poor countries than wealthy ones. It won't be difficult at all to find another source of cheap labor.

You mentioned if your country will be hurt by China. The last time I looked, NZ/Australia (sorry I'm still little confused about your nationality) benefited mightily from China's economic boom. Australian PM openly stated his appreciation toward China multiple times. AND many other nations, including some major economies like Germany and Japan, openly stated that China helped them come out of the recession. Even in the US, while we always hear about the jobs lost to China, we also hear about some mines and factories that had been abandoned long ago are opened again because China is buying resources like minerals and steels. WHY do you think the US hasn't done a thing against China if they completely believe that China's economic policies are damaging the American economy??? The benefit of doing business with China must have out-weighed the harm by a margin wide enough that the elected American politicians are willing maintain the same trade policies even if this would mean giving ammunition to their political opponents. Let's face it. The developed economies have been losing manufacturing jobs for decades to developing nations. That's why you see the American politician keep shifting blames from Japan to South Korea to China. This is not about China, but the nature of how a capitalistic economy works.

again, like I said before, the key is NOT to simply "get the jobs back". They are gone and won't come back. The key is to create new TYPES of jobs more suitable to the developed economies. Developed economies will have to face this kind of crisis sooner or later because manufacturers WILL always try to find ways to lower cost to maintain their competitiveness. This would including high-tech methods of production, better management AND cheap labor. guess which one is the easiest to find? Yep, cheap labor. You don't have to invest millions for better equipment and you don't need to spend millions to hire a Harvard graduate only later to find that this guy is a fake. Cheap labor in a poor country? Cheap and easy.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

As regards the US I think you combining the founding of a nation with the period of industrialisation.
If we were to study the human cost of Chinas expansion from its ancient roots to its present day size, it also would'nt be very pretty.

If I remember a little of American history, slave labour was well gone, before the true part of the industrial revolution took place in America.

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Do you think Europeans just woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's have an industrial revolution! It'll be grand!"?

The European industrial revolution was able to take place because of centuries of plundering wealth from South American, African and Middle Eastern civilizations. How do you think the Renaissance took place? The Pope just woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's drop this Dark Ages crap and start embracing new ideas!"?

The point is, just like you need capital to start a business, you need resources to kick start an economy. The Europeans exploited other civilizations' natural and human resources, while China is exploiting Chinese natural and human resources.

When the industrial revolution took place in England, there were organisations, and individuals who campaigned against the injustices and work conditions, and these aims were eventually achieved.
In China similar organisations and people, attract unwelcome attention of the authorities and..............ahem?????

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ROFL.... This statement betrays just how truly ignorant you are about China and its socio-political environment.

Anyway I think the gist of the thread was whether the West was being totally unrealistic in its expectations of Chinas economic policy.

While its understable that you may have emotional ties to China, hence being prepared to overlook her warts in this area so to speak, I don't. In fact my life is in the west, and if Chinas economic policies become a threat to the economic well being of myself and my country and all other she trades with, then I dont have a problem with adopting policies to counter them.

Even if it means having to play "dirty pool" At the end of the day its self interest first.

Having said that Ive never been a supporter of free trade, and not too concerned if it fails and we adopt a protectionist outlook. Futhermore I dont have a problem with increased prices, as long as some good came from it.

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You *do* realize that price increase = inflation, right? Strangely enough, a lot of people don't like that. If New Zealanders didn't want to trade with China, they're welcome to shut their doors. I suspect, however, that there's a good reason they don't.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

vesicles said:

You mentioned if your country will be hurt by China. The last time I looked, NZ/Australia (sorry I'm still little confused about your nationality) benefited mightily from China's economic boom.

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I sorta reside in both countries: Every six weeks I head to Australia for a couple of weeks, I still have a home in Melbourne and I catch up with one of my sones that lives in Melb, as well.

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The key is to create new TYPES of jobs more suitable to the developed economies. .

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Australia has atrade surplus with China while I think Nz has a deficit

That would be very hard: Even when one comes up with something innovative in a product, the Chinese are making Knock offs in no time. I Know some people who have an engineering design/consultancy business who told me just upgrading their software cost them thousands. While a few graduate engineers in China could set up business with pirated software for a few hundred????. Personally I think theres so many millions of people involved in this illicit economy in China that the authorities are too scared to stop it.

Breaking News some Chinese mainlander business, perhaps with govt support have applied to spend $1.5billion on buying up dairy farms in NZ. which is attracting a huge out cry. Considering one could get a pretty good sorta dairy farm between the 6-10million mark, thats a lota farms someone has applied to buy.

Seeing I know quite a bit about dairy farming (I once owned one) I should have gone to a bank when I was in China earlier on, borrowed half a squillion and bought up a slice of NZ

Actually there is quite a big suspicion that individuals from China are acting as fronts for people when buying farms. There was one individual woman who spent big money on buying several farms, and she could'nt provide evidence on how she acquired the money.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

solarz said:

The point is, just like you need capital to start a business, you need resources to kick start an economy. The Europeans exploited other civilizations' natural and human resources, while China is exploiting Chinese natural and human resources.

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I think you have forgotten Chinas entry into Africa/ Sudan etc. Internally theres a questionmark over Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia?

ROFL.... This statement betrays just how truly ignorant you are about China and its socio-political environment.

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I cant remember his name, but whats your take on the recent jailing of the latest high profile disident a few months ago.?


You *do* realize that price increase = inflation, right? Strangely enough, a lot of people don't like that. If New Zealanders didn't want to trade with China, they're welcome to shut their doors. I suspect, however, that there's a good reason they don't.

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The Govt charges our Reserve bank Governer to see that, our annual inflation rate flutates between 2.5%-3%
Our Govt must be learning from China, just as Chinas leaders command a growth rate , ofno less than 8% ours can command an inflation rate of no more than 3%, something weve managed to do in the last couple of decades or so. (sarcastic chuckle)

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

Bladerunner:

1. China's entry into Africa and Sudan have been based on equal economic partnership. China hasn't sent in any soldiers to enforce "trade deals", or capture locals to use as slave labor.

2. The dissident you mentioned, IIRC, was a political activist who published some tract advocating a multi-party system. Labor activism is actually supported by the government. You *do* remember that CCP stands for Chinese Communist Party, don't you?

3. I have no idea what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. And why are your quotes always screwed up?

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

solarz said:

Bladerunner:

1. China's entry into Africa and Sudan have been based on equal economic partnership. China hasn't sent in any soldiers to enforce "trade deals", or capture locals to use as slave labor.

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Sounds very good on paper, but in reality its not really happening.

I dont know if you ever read this debate on the China Africa trade. Although the result was in China's favour, I think some of the dissenting views are rather enlightening.

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3. I have no idea what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. And why are your quotes always screwed up?

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I was being sarcastic at our own government. For decades we have a declared and carefully controlled inflation rate of no more than 3%.Therefore the govt will take steps to ensure there wont be a increase of inflation because of restriction/taxes/ etc on Chinese products. ( anyone that believes that would also have to believe in Santa Clause)


It gets mucked up because Im multi tasking, and the browser or whatever wont let me make corrections from time to time , even when Im signed in.

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Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

ROFL...

article said:

China's increased engagement with Africa has impeded the continent's halting steps towards democratic accountability and better governance. African countries receiving Chinese aid have little incentive to improve governance.

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China didn't go into Africa until very recently. How did 50+ years of NOT receiving Chinese aid workout for improving governance in Africa?