Global future space architecture thread

enroger

Senior Member
Registered Member
Keep in mind also that just because they’re able to land the thing doesn’t mean that it’s returning in a reusable state, or in the case of providing for a manned mission that it’s a safe reentry vehicle for humans. One of the main problems with popular perceptions of Starship vs engineering reality is that just because you have high testing cadence doesn’t mean you’re actually moving fast in your development. You can do a lot of testing and actually be making slow progress for your critical milestones. The frequency of Starship test launches isn’t in of itself a sure mark of rapid progress.

True. However in case people accuse I/we are too critical on SPX, I just want to say I don't really care about the short coming of SPX's approach just to criticize them. My concern is whether SPX's approach is a good way forward for Chinese civil aerospace industry to copy wholesale, if not then what can be done to improve upon it or what other alternatives are out there.

This is partly the reason why I very much approve the shotgun approach of Chinese investment in this sector, there're dozens of companies out there and each have somewhat different approaches, some of them are copying SPX all the way, some of them have different ideas, one of them are bound to find the holy grail.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
The fact that they have ended up with architectures for CZ-10 and CZ-9 which are reminiscent of Falcon 9/Heavy and Super Heavy respectively, is not a glowing endorsement of their prior design thinking and ambition. If anything it is an endorsement of SpaceX.
China has always acknowledged the viability of reusable rocket technology. SpaceX was the first to apply VTVL (Vertical Take-off, Vertical Landing) to an orbital launch vehicle. Prior to that, VTVL was primarily used for lunar landers, such as in America’s Apollo program and China’s Chang’e lunar missions.

China is researching nearly all types of reusable launch vehicle technologies, each with its own objective. This ranges from the parachute recovery system of the Kistler K1, to reusable re-entry spaceplanes like the X-37B, to the BS-1 rocketplane (which, in fact, was the direction favored by the international space community before 2010: a VTHL model powered by an RBCC engine), and future two-stage horizontal take-off launch vehicles (an HTHL model using TBCC propulsion).

VTVL was an unexpected approach for the global aerospace community; no one anticipated it would become practical. SpaceX and Blue Origin are the true pioneers of this current wave of VTVL development.

In my opinion, the Falcon 9 initially followed the K1 recovery path (a point confirmed in Chinese aerospace research literature). It was likely the competitive pressure from Blue Origin’s suborbital human spaceflight program that pushed SpaceX to fully commit to the VTVL route.


The requirements for the CZ-10 in the early studies were different from what came later.
Initially, China's moon landing plan involved three launches: two CZ-5DY rockets (with a 20t LTO capacity) plus one CZ-5 crewed version (with an 8-10t LTO capacity). The CZ-5DY was essentially a kerosene-fueled first-stage version of the CZ-5 (with an LEO capacity >40t), whereas the CZ-5 used a hydrogen-oxygen (hydrolox) first stage. Because the CZ-5DY's capacity was too large and China wanted to preserve its hydrolox propulsion technology, the CZ-5DY was not pursued at the time.
The early requirement for China's crewed lunar spacecraft was around 20 tons; it was only in recent years that this was increased to 27 tons. The essence of the mission, however, has not changed. If you understand the Saturn V mission, it was for a 50t LTO payload requirement (this is how it's thought of within China's aerospace community). The early moon landing plan essentially broke this 50t LTO requirement into three separate launches.
The latest CZ-10 plan, however, breaks it down into two launches. The adjustment to the CZ-10 plan was actually about reducing launch difficulty, primarily because of the extremely high boil-off rate of liquid hydrogen. The early launch plan was essentially to burn all the propellant as quickly as possible after launch (including the liquid hydrogen in the upper stage) to avoid the problem of fuel boil-off during LEO docking (the Ares V had this same problem, which was a major headache). This is why China's crewed moon landing plan required the crewed version of the Long March 5 (as stated in Long Lehao's 2010 paper). The CZ-2F can only perform docking in low Earth orbit, which would cause the entire mission to encounter the same problem that New Glenn and Starship face today (the boil-off of cryogenic propellants during long-duration storage in orbit).
This was especially true after the CZ-5 ran into problems (its initial design flaws were discovered around 2011, requiring extensive reinforcements). In 2013, the previous plan for a three-launch moon landing in 2024 was halted. This led to a new selection process in 2018, where it was decided that a three-launch plan was still too troublesome, and it was switched to a two-launch plan with direct docking in lunar orbit. This required a rocket with greater thrust and a better orbital insertion scheme. The old CZ-5DY, with its maximum of 16 engines, was not enough, and more would need to be added. This led to two proposals: a 3x7 configuration (21 engines) and a 5x4 configuration (20 engines), corresponding to the 3-CBC and 5-CBC technical approaches.
The actual re-selection involved three competing proposals: the CZ-9B, the current 3-CBC CZ-10, and the predecessor of the 5-CBC CZ-12. The 3-CBC CZ-10 was chosen because it had greater potential for reusability—at least it would only require recovering three boosters simultaneously instead of five (the CZ-9 was chosen for the same reason). In reality, none of the competing models at the time had recovery capabilities because the engines and the airframe were mismatched (the YF-100's thrust was too large). This mismatch is also a primary reason why the CZ-10 adopted a cable-driven tether recovery system.
So, for you to say that the CZ-10 was created to copy the Heavy Falcon out of admiration for it is truly speechless for me. China's CZ-10 initially did not consider recovery; recovery was actually a later-added feature. It required solving the problem of a 1/5 throttling engine, something you have no idea about. Getting a 100-ton-class engine, especially one using a staged-combustion cycle, to achieve this level of throttling is incredibly troublesome. As of 2024, it has only been solved to the extent of 1/3 throttling, which is barely usable. Back in 2018, as a national project, reusability was not considered in the initial stages, so when the CZ-10 was initiated, there was no such requirement at all.
This is just like the CZ-9B. Many people think that because it has an engine in the middle, it can perform a vertical landing. The problem is that the first stage of the CZ-9B has a dry mass of around 100 tons, but it's paired with the YF-130 engine, which has a thrust of 500 tons. It would be fortunate if its minimum thrust could be reduced to 250 tons. How could it possibly be reused? The other 5-CBC proposal had the same problem.
So, the truth is, the choice of the CZ-10 had little to do with the Heavy Falcon. It was only later recognized that it simply had the potential for recovery.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Unlike the development of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy equivalents seemingly going pretty well, the super heavy situation does seem to be much worse for China, I'm not sure why they're so much further behind.
CZ-10 uses the YF-100 engine design as in the CZ-5. While CZ-9 has been redesigned to use all new engines with different fuel when they made it reusable. That really delayed the program.
 
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jx191

New Member
Registered Member
I never said that CZ-10 and CZ-9 are copies of Falcon 9 and Super Heavy; what I said was that their architectures were similar, as a way of pointing out that Falcon 9 and Super Heavy are endorsements for SpaceX.

Obviously CBC is something that has been done by others before SpaceX, but that wasn't what I was getting at.




I recommend you re-read my prior post in full -- nowhere did I use the word "copy".
I remarked upon the fact that CZ-10 and CZ-9 utilized architectures/configurations similar to that of Falcon 9/Heavy and Super Heavy, to endorse that the configurations SpaceX settled on have turned out to be sensible, because multiple people have argued that SpaceX were insensible.

I also recommend reading the rest of what I wrote in that post, because you seem to have only honed in on the initial part of the reply and misinterpreted it into something entirely unrelated (i.e.: you think I was accusing CZ-10 and CZ-9 of "copying" SpaceX, which is not the case), whereas the rest of my post was actually addressing the blindspots in your assessment of the overall US-PRC space competition.


Also, can you put in some paragraph breaks next time please?
I think part of the problem is that he writes his posts in Chinese but uses AI to translate them.

Therefore there might be a misunderstanding between you two because the AI doesn't always translate the posts with 100% accuracy. Even very subtle changes in interpretation get caught up by AI translations.

He is certainly very knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff though.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
the direction favored by the international space community before 2010: a VTHL model powered by an RBCC engine), and future two-stage horizontal take-off launch vehicles (an HTHL model using TBCC propulsion).
Shades of Shuttle and Sanger-II.

VTVL was an unexpected approach for the global aerospace community; no one anticipated it would become practical. SpaceX and Blue Origin are the true pioneers of this current wave of VTVL development.
People in the space industry have known about VTVL for a long time. It was ignored mostly for political reasons.

Try reading about Phil Bono's VTVL designs or about the Douglas DC-X. NEXUS by the guy who designed the Centaur engine is another good example.
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Or Truax's Sea Dragon.
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Designing an HTHL vehicle is not impossible, just a heck of a lot harder than a VTVL, and you will likely get less payload out of it.
It would be mostly useful as a crew transport vehicle if anyone ever makes one. HTHL is good at that.

My favorite HTHL design is Black Horse.
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The X-34 is a similar design.
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But I guess now there is SpaceShipTwo.
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In my opinion, the Falcon 9 initially followed the K1 recovery path (a point confirmed in Chinese aerospace research literature). It was likely the competitive pressure from Blue Origin’s suborbital human spaceflight program that pushed SpaceX to fully commit to the VTVL route.
Probably, yes.
 
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nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
What is this about CZ-9 being delayed? I thought they were targeting early 2030s has that scheduled been delayed? I tried to search for it in the old space thread but I can't find any info about it and you can't search "CZ-9" due to search limitations.
The CZ-9 has always been defined by China's aerospace sector as a heavy-lift launch vehicle. Since China had no experience in developing heavy-lift rockets, and considering the timing when the plan was formulated, early preliminary research began around 2005. At that time, the CZ-5 was just approaching project approval. Therefore, China initially envisioned the CZ-9 as a 20-year development cycle, with the formal period starting after 2010; everything before that was considered early pre-research.
The development cycle for China's rocket models is basically 10 years for a new model and 5 years for a modified version. Therefore, 20 years was considered the most feasible cycle for China, given its weak foundation at the time. Consequently, the CZ-9 was planned from the start to enter service after 2030.
Between 2011 and 2015, the CZ-9 transitioned from a basic version requirement to an enhanced version (China divides heavy-lift rocket payload capabilities into three tiers: a 100-ton basic version, a 140-ton enhanced version, and a 200-ton nuclear thermal version). The CZ-9 initially targeted a 100-ton LEO payload requirement (referred to as the "basic version" in China). By 2011, the specification was around 120 tons to LEO, essentially benchmarking the lower limit of the Saturn V's payload capacity (in Chinese professional literature, the Saturn V's LEO capability is calculated as a minimum of 118 tons). By 2015, the CZ-9's configuration was confirmed as a Saturn V-style clustered booster design. At this point, the LEO payload began to be adjusted to 140 tons (with a launch mass of over 4,100 tons), and the basic version requirement no longer existed (for example, the dual-booster CZ-9 in the 2017 version, whereas the standard CZ-9 has four boosters).
From 2015 to 2020, the CZ-9 entered key technology breakthrough phase, and many designs began at this time. The development of three main engine models truly started in this stage, as did manufacturing technologies for the airframe and propellant tanks.
If there were no reusability requirements, the 2017 version of the Long March 9 would likely have been officially announced as entering development after 2021. In fact, in the second half of 2020, CASC (China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation) had already basically initiated planning for various heavy-lift rocket development tasks (establishing detailed R&D and production mission documents, with literature describing over 300 people involved in creating process and specification documents). As we all know, what happened next was that SpaceX's heavy-lift rocket was truly about to become reality. Between 2015 and 2020, the shortcomings of the Long March 9's modular configurations had already been recognized—specifically, the insufficient thrust of the "stick" version of the CZ-9. China realized this was a major problem. Coupled with the concept that the CZ-9's recovery scale was too large (simultaneous recovery of five boosters), the cost-effectiveness was poor. Therefore, they re-studied a Starship-like approach (actually a Saturn V configuration + N1 + SpaceX recovery).
The reason was that during the deepening research on key technologies for heavy-lift rockets between 2016 and 2020, various rocket configuration combinations were studied. The only thing not seriously studied was the possibility of a "stick" heavy-lift rocket. The reason was that China's early view generally believed it was impossible for heavy-lift rockets to follow a "stick" path, so it wasn't taken seriously.
The real help from SpaceX's Starship to the new CZ-9 should not be the 33-engine integration, but rather that a "stick" rocket has a simpler recovery solution. If heavy-lift rockets pursue reusability, it is best to use a "stick" configuration to truly save money, achieve efficient launches, and reduce risk. This should be the greatest impact of SpaceX's Starship on the CZ-9.
Therefore, the CZ-9 should now be in a five-year period of detailed design and simulation (most of the work for the 2017 version was already completed before 2020). At the same time, other technologies such as engines and propellant tanks continue to accumulate (work has not stopped).
In practice, five years is enough time to build a heavy-lift rocket. SpaceX actually took 4-5 years to develop its heavy-lift rocket to first flight (in 2023). So, if China's aerospace sector aims to achieve a first flight in 2030 (with the expendable version), March-April 2026 will be the critical period. If there is no news by 2026, the CZ-9 will certainly be delayed to a 2035 first flight; otherwise, it will fly around 2030. There's no great secret—it's just the spending cycle of the five-year plan.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Try reading about Phil Bono's VTVL designs or about the Douglas DC-X. NEXUS by the guy who designed the Centaur engine is another good example.
According to Chinese aerospace literature and various professional master’s and doctoral theses, the VTVL field basically only discusses the American Apollo lunar lander and the Douglas vertical (DC-X) take-off and landing test vehicle from the 1980s.

The VTVL designs you mention, especially things like Sea Dragon, are basically discussed by amateurs. These impractical designs have essentially no reference value and are not of concern to serious researchers.

Therefore, from China’s perspective on VTVL in the rocket field, the first reference is the Douglas DC-X, followed by Blue Origin’s suborbital crewed spacecraft, and then SpaceX’s Falcon 9.

The one that truly succeeded is the Falcon 9.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
People in the space industry have known about VTVL for a long time. It was ignored mostly for political reasons.
The usable throttle ratio of modern rocket engines has consistently been around 40-50%. Considering the constraints of Earth’s gravity well, a practical VTVL system essentially requires around ten engines.

This is another consequence of the N1 failure; it caused the aerospace sector to reject solutions involving a large number of engines operating in parallel. Furthermore, the engines built later by the US and Soviet Union (Russia) were basically around 200 tons of thrust class, while Europe’s and Japan’s first-stage hydrolox engines are all over 140 tons of thrust.

In reality, this technological trajectory made it fundamentally impossible to build a VTVL rocket. Because the total thrust from nine 140-ton or 200-ton class rocket engines would be too immense. Such a rocket would be impractical for the aerospace field, leaving no room for developing this class of rocket with a sensible payload. Rockets built with these kinds of engines would have a starting payload capacity of 60-80 tons to LEO, which is too high to be an initial, practical step.

The reason SpaceX and Blue Origin were able to pioneer this path is entirely because their initial rocket engines had only several tens of tons of thrust. This made the concept of a reusable rocket much more feasible.

The core reason China needed 10 years to build a Falcon 9-class rocket is that the YF-100’s thrust is simply too large and cannot be sufficiently throttled down. Therefore, to create a truly recoverable rocket, they had to develop new 80-100 ton class engines to achieve Falcon 9-level capabilities.

The CZ-10 represents a different technological path: one of tackling the problem head-on by solving the deep-throttling technology for a 100-ton class engine. The first goal is to achieve a minimum thrust of 1/3, followed by 1/5, and then to see if they can reach 1/10.

Choosing this technically difficult route was necessary because the CZ-10 project was not initially conceived as a reusable rocket. Its primary requirement was to meet the demands of the moon landing; reusability was a requirement added later. This is why the entire arrangement feels rather awkward.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
According to Chinese aerospace literature and various professional master’s and doctoral theses, the VTVL field basically only discusses the American Apollo lunar lander and the Douglas vertical (DC-X) take-off and landing test vehicle from the 1980s.

The VTVL designs you mention, especially things like Sea Dragon, are basically discussed by amateurs. These impractical designs have essentially no reference value and are not of concern to serious researchers.

Therefore, from China’s perspective on VTVL in the rocket field, the first reference is the Douglas DC-X, followed by Blue Origin’s suborbital crewed spacecraft, and then SpaceX’s Falcon 9.

The one that truly succeeded is the Falcon 9.
If you limit yourself to only designs actually built in hardware you will continue being a follower rather than a leader.

If you want to talk about actual physical hardware, Japan also built a VTVL demonstrator. They flew it in 2001.
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Phil Bono's 1960s designs are more advanced than SpaceX Falcon. For example SASSTO was supposed to use LOX/Slush LH2 as propellant. And it had a plug nozzle engine.

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nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
I never said that CZ-10 and CZ-9 are copies of Falcon 9 and Super Heavy; what I said was that their architectures were similar, as a way of pointing out that Falcon 9 and Super Heavy are endorsements for SpaceX.

Obviously CBC is something that has been done by others before SpaceX, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

.......

Also, can you put in some paragraph breaks next time please?
When I use AI translation software, it sometimes has many problems, including partially misinterpreting what I say. It might also misinterpret what you say.

If I have misunderstood your meaning, I offer my apologies here.
 
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