Global future space architecture thread

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
@nativechicken

You need to learn to make coherent arguments in English instead of writing AI-translated word diarrhea. Repeating "I’ve said it many times", "you don't get it", "you will never understand why", "do you understand now?" ad nauseam is not an argument.

And have some intellectual integrity please.
"You call the Long March 9 a “PPT rocket,” but in reality, Starship’s current state isn’t much better than a PowerPoint presentation." --One has been flight tested 10 times (with engine and demonstrator tests before that) and the other is actually a PPT slide.
"As an old Chinese saying goes: “欲速则不达” (More haste, less speed)." --This is Jai Hind-grade copium.

The bottom line is that SpaceX's two major projects, the Falcon 9 and the Starship, are both well-thought out, revoluntary designs that are far ahead of their contemporaries and lead to imitations--the most sincere form of flattery. Saying Starship is limited in the payload it can deploy is intellectually dishonest because the same is true for every rocket. Saying future on-paper Chinese design can do X better is cope.
Agree, but I think you guys should just leave this front and back conversation to rest. Since no party is going to give into their feelings. lol

The thing is if SpaceX was a Chinese company you can be sure all those members on here who are downplaying SpaceX achievements right now, will be saying the total opposite of what they are saying today lol. That is least we can all agree on right? lol

it’s understandable that people are prideful and nationalistic for their country , so it can be hard to recognize when your enemy is ahead of you in a field. However , I don’t think it should always be like that.

Anyway, let’s get back to topic on Chinas space program.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Agree, but I think you guys should just leave this front and back conversation to rest. Since no party is going to give into their feelings. lol

The thing is if SpaceX was a Chinese company you can be sure all those members on here who are downplaying SpaceX achievements right now, will be saying the total opposite of what they are saying today lol. That is least we can all agree on right? lol

it’s understandable that people are prideful and nationalistic for their country , so it can be hard to recognize when your enemy is ahead of you in a field. However , I don’t think it should always be like that.

Anyway, let’s get back to topic on Chinas space program.
I wouldn't be proud of 10 failures in a row. I'd question who was funding them and to what end, as well as the mismanagement of the project. If you failed 10 tests of a project in a row at your work, will you still have a job?

I like to see success.

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BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Let me add one more thing: the data in that image is wildly inaccurate. For instance, the larger Falcon Heavy fairing—that was never actually built. The current Falcon Heavy fairing is 10 meters tall, exactly the same as the one on Falcon 9. They’ve been trying to develop a 15-20 meter fairing for years but have never been able to solve the associated problems.

In reality, the issue isn’t the size of the fairing itself. It’s that the rocket’s length-to-diameter ratio (the ratio of its length to its diameter) has already reached its limit on the Falcon 9 platform. Its length cannot be increased.

Why? You would need a thorough understanding of rocket structural mechanics to grasp the reason.

Also, the Starship payload bay height in that image is complete nonsense. The usable height inside Starship’s payload bay is 18 meters, with the total external height at most 21 meters (due to a fuel tank in the nose section).

Furthermore, the volume for SLS Block 2 is also wrong. If you check the news, you’ll find that the maximum payload bay volume for SLS Block 2 is 1,800 m³.

I don't think evaluating spacecraft from a purely volume perspective is good. Yes, the Starship won't be able to deploy a hypothetical 8x8x15m monolithic device. But how many such satellites exist? I have my doubts about the concept too (primarily demand and ultra impractical moon trips) but it has its merits. It will be unrivaled in turn over time and cost/kg to orbit.
 

iewgnem

Captain
Registered Member
Agree, but I think you guys should just leave this front and back conversation to rest. Since no party is going to give into their feelings. lol

The thing is if SpaceX was a Chinese company you can be sure all those members on here who are downplaying SpaceX achievements right now, will be saying the total opposite of what they are saying today lol. That is least we can all agree on right? lol

it’s understandable that people are prideful and nationalistic for their country , so it can be hard to recognize when your enemy is ahead of you in a field. However , I don’t think it should always be like that.

Anyway, let’s get back to topic on Chinas space program.
Chinese culture isn't very forgiving of Elon style non-delivery btw, that's why everyone likes to stay silent until they have something real.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think evaluating spacecraft from a purely volume perspective is good. Yes, the Starship won't be able to deploy a hypothetical 8x8x15m monolithic device. But how many such satellites exist? I have my doubts about the concept too (primarily demand and ultra impractical moon trips) but it has its merits. It will be unrivaled in turn over time and cost/kg to orbit.
The next-generation space station will require modules at least 6 meters in diameter and 18 meters in length. Using Starship's second stage modified for space station purposes has the problem that one entire quadrant is completely unusable, and its diameter is too large—the original second-stage tanks are too big (creating wasted volume), posing significant practical risks.
China has a design for a rigid lunar module, 6 meters in diameter and 16-18 meters long (intended for use with heavy cargo landers). Subsequent space construction—whether for space solar power demonstrations or space service stations (systems specifically for refueling and resupplying satellites)—will involve building large-scale structures (200-300 meters in diameter), requiring cargo transport capabilities of over 20 meters.
For crewed Mars missions after 2040, it will be necessary to assemble two nuclear-powered spacecraft in space, each at least 100 meters long (generally, such designs require about 100 meters of separation between the crew module and the propulsion module—this is standard practice).
Therefore, the current partially reusable version of the Long March 9 is very practical for China. If the U.S. doesn't have similar space plans, then I have nothing more to say.
So don't call me arrogant for saying that by 2035, U.S. space capabilities will be noticeably behind China's. That's because America currently has no concrete plans for these super-large space systems, while all of them are on China's Long March 9 mission manifest. If the U.S. doesn't want to start falling behind by 2035, it must begin budgeting and designing them now (don't forget, the average R&D cycle for a U.S. crewed space payload is about 8.2 years).
 

totenchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wouldn't be proud of 10 failures in a row. I'd question who was funding them and to what end, as well as the mismanagement of the project. If you failed 10 tests of a project in a row at your work, will you still have a job?

I like to see success.

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Success being having flown only 7 times and failed on two of those flights? I like Landspace a lot but lets not pretend they are perfect.
 

enroger

Senior Member
Registered Member
The thing is if SpaceX was a Chinese company you can be sure all those members on here who are downplaying SpaceX achievements right now, will be saying the total opposite of what they are saying today lol. That is least we can all agree on right? lol

No we cannot agree on that. In fact we were just discussing the wisdom of Landspace's decision of a full steel construction or the lack thereof. Jury is still out on that but you claiming members here are mindlessly biased is just your own projection.
 
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nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think evaluating spacecraft from a purely volume perspective is good. Yes, the Starship won't be able to deploy a hypothetical 8x8x15m monolithic device. But how many such satellites exist? I have my doubts about the concept too (primarily demand and ultra impractical moon trips) but it has its merits. It will be unrivaled in turn over time and cost/kg to orbit.
As for the cost issue of reusable spacecraft—haven’t you noticed that most Chinese people simply don’t care about this question? Because in today’s industrial production, no one is better at or more skilled in cutting costs than the Chinese.

If you read Chinese literature on reusable rockets (published in China Aerospace Magazine—an official and highly authoritative publication, written probably by LandSpace around mid-this year)—you’ll know that China firmly believes SpaceX’s quoted launch price for a reusable Falcon 9 is $14 million. So all of China’s space industry is using this price as a benchmark (anchor) to set the launch price and operational system for China’s reusable rockets.

If you ask the Americans on NSF who follow these issues, everyone knows SpaceX’s Falcon 9 launch cost is at least around $69 million, and launches for NASA and the military are over$100 million each. China’s commercial space sector is building the foundation of its competition based on a mistaken price positioning. I wonder what Musk would say if he saw that.

Secondly, there’s another point you seem to have overlooked: SpaceX is just a launch company with about 10,000+ employees. Real space applications are not being built by Musk. Take Blue Origin’s “Orbital Reef” or other commercial space station plans, for example. Your rocket being efficient and cheap doesn’t mean much if other space payload manufacturers are delayed or extremely costly. The U.S. space industry can’t afford it and can’t compete with China, understand?

The strength of China’s space program is that it basically has no major weaknesses. The U.S. having only one strong company like SpaceX is actually not very useful. If China doesn’t give the U.S. rare earths or contract manufacturing, the U.S. space industry can’t do anything—at least a 10-year delay. For example, in the 2022 GAO report, SLS manufacturing issues, critical special valves, and special aerospace chips all had to be sourced from China (the original text says “East Asia”—you don’t really think it’s Japan or South Korea, do you?).

So, I’m not worried about the price issue you mentioned. Using the commercial satellite market to reduce costs and lower R&D risks for Starship—China is already learning from this, just not necessarily with CZ-9, but with other private enterprises.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
it’s understandable that people are prideful and nationalistic for their country , so it can be hard to recognize when your enemy is ahead of you in a field. However , I don’t think it should always be like that.
You have misunderstood me.

First, personally, I like Musk. He’s very much my kind of guy; he’s very candid on China issues and basically speaks up for China.

Second, I actually hope to see signs of a slowdown in the decline of American aerospace. I don’t have high hopes for Sino-US cooperation in the short term, but I hope that on a 30-year timescale, our two countries can one day cooperate. For humanity to enter deep space, cooperation and unity are necessary. Right now, compared to the Age of Exploration, humanity is still just floating on the sea with sailboats.

If humanity doesn’t destroy itself through war, cooperating to move into the future is an inevitable outcome.

Third, China does not want to see American aerospace, or even its technology, decline. As a 5,000-year-old great power, China is very clear about the consequences of a collapse of a nation at the level of the United States. That kind of catastrophic shock would not be in China’s interests. China needs the existence of a powerful competitor—not out of pity for the American situation, but because China understands even better that without a suitable rival, China itself would be more prone to decline. Therefore, maintaining the rival’s capability is, in itself, a way to ensure China’s own better existence. It’s just that this philosophy is not well understood by Western culture. The Western goal for a challenger is their complete destruction.

Fourth, my observation of American aerospace has its own principles. For instance, as I mentioned before, China has already made the necessary technological and project preparations for the next 15-20 years. And what is America doing now? It’s in a stage of having done nothing, of not even having begun to think about these things. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. China is already advancing on all fronts from a new starting line, while Americans are still in chaos, not even having identified the problems. I can only say, my friend, in ten years, what will you rely on to win against China?

It’s like China’s rare earth strategy 30 years ago, or its electric vehicle strategy 15-20 years ago. The China I see has already unfolded its work and layout for the next 10-20 years. Americans are still cluelessly wondering what to do. Everyone is hoping SpaceX’s Starship can maintain America’s lead. I feel a bit helpless. I mentioned something before: right now, the entire U.S. has only four heavy-lift rocket engine models with over 200 tons of thrust, and one of them is about to be retired (the RS-25 for SLS), while the other has been shelved (the AS-1). In China, a single rocket engine research institute can simultaneously develop 8 completely different engine models (actually 11 variants) within 8 years, of which 5 have over 200 tons of thrust. Under this kind of R&D pressure, they can still “squeeze in” the development of a 140-ton engine.

Go look at the American aerospace program at the height of the Cold War; it couldn’t even manage to develop so many engine models at the same time. And this doesn’t even include private heavy-lift rocket engines. Besides the official heavy engines, at least two other private companies have proposed heavy engines over 200 tons of thrust (comparable to the Raptor). The development capability and cost of a 200-ton-class liquid rocket engine are extremely high (even normal national space agencies can’t do it. Just look at Japan, Europe, and India if you don’t believe me). For China to have at least 8 different heavy engine models, with different working principles, under development by 2030—this strength is so insane it’s hard to believe.

Right now, America only has two types of heavy engines under development: the Raptor series and Blue Origin’s BE-4, both methane-powered. There used to be the AS-1 (kerosene, 200-ton class) for the SLS. China is simultaneously developing heavy hydrogen-oxygen engines, heavy kerosene engines, and heavy methane engines.

Do you really think I’m hyping up China’s space program out of emotion? Or is it based on indisputable facts?

Let me say it again: when I point out America’s problems, it’s not to mock American aerospace. When I negate Starship, it’s not out of hatred for SpaceX.

I hope that one day, American decision-makers will see what I see and make American aerospace successful again. That way, 30 years from now, when facing deep space, China and the United States can reconcile, and China will have a true partner and not be alone. That is my goal.
 
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