Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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tidalwave

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adiru said:
So the question becomes is China willing to effectively let/have its tech ambitions neutered or is it going to actually start fighting back and doing something about it. Xi would be naive if he thinks America will be satisfied at just going after Huawei.

Yesterday Huawei, today TikTok, tomorrow DJI. Once the 10 % rule is implemented it can be decreased to 5% or even 0.001% etc... and applied to all Chinese companies not just the tip of the sphere ones.

It is basically a full declaration of economic and technological war.
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There's old Chinese saying "先死后生" Die first and then reborn.
US pushing to the limit. I kind of like it!

I still don't see China proactively developing its lithography equipment currently. No sense of urgency. Still trying to get by just buying from ASML.

Huawei should get into semiconductor manufacturing using IDM model like samsung. Its been in business for many years yet it never bother. If it started by many years ago, by now it should accumulate alot of experiences already.

If its 5G dream got shattered by this US trade war, then focus on 6G research and focus on all the components, and semiconductor manufacturing and its own EUV and 193nm lithography equipment.. Reborn 10 years from now.
 
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tidalwave

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Xsizor said:
More concerning news. Show me some feel-good news. :eek:
Nothing? Don't tell me its all crickets and winds whistling...Not with 1.4 Billion people. Never.
I demand some good news. It may not be from Shenzen or Shanghai...It could be from some other cities.
A new GPU ? New Processor for Supercomputer ? A new Lithography breakthough? A new DRAM/NAND fab. Nothing?!
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forget GPU, CPU, too many of those already. Designed and give to taiwan for manufacturing. That area is overdone.

CMXT DDR4 DRAM starts manufacturing. That's a very nice breakthrough.

But main one Huawei could be in trouble.
 
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Pkp88

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I'm bit of a lurker on this forum, but felt I could contribute to this thread. Good sources for Chinese tech can be found on the following website 1) Digitimes:
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2)
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; On the CPU front domestic firms have made progress 1) Phytium 2) Zhaoxin - which by 2020 should have something competitive to Ryzen / Memory: CXMT has made decent progress / The weak point for China is lithography, where ASML has not committed to selling 5nm or below EUV tech. However, TSMC does depend on Chinese companies for etching tech (see Nauara) when it comes to the manufacturing process, so it's not like China is a total zero on that front. I have seen some articles on China making its own lithography tech but would need someone in China to actually check up on it:
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Pkp88

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Pkp88 said:
I'm bit of a lurker on this forum, but felt I could contribute to this thread. Good sources for Chinese tech can be found on the following website 1) Digitimes:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
2)
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
; On the CPU front domestic firms have made progress 1) Phytium 2) Zhaoxin - which by 2020 should have something competitive to Ryzen / Memory: CXMT has made decent progress / The weak point for China is lithography, where ASML has not committed to selling 5nm or below EUV tech. However, TSMC does depend on Chinese companies for etching tech (see Nauara) when it comes to the manufacturing process, so it's not like China is a total zero on that front. I have seen some articles on China making its own lithography tech but would need someone in China to actually check up on it:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
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Also it's not like ASML is actively cutting off supplying domestic chinese manufacturers. HSMC just got new ASML equipment for 14nm risk production. So not all doom and gloom...
 
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tidalwave

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Pkp88 said:
Also it's not like ASML is actively cutting off supplying domestic chinese manufacturers. HSMC just got new ASML equipment for 14nm risk production. So not all doom and gloom...
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According to upcoming changes in US rules, HSMC will get sanctioned by US if it try to manufactured for Huawei.
Likewise for SMIC.
 
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adiru

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Xsizor said:
More concerning news. Show me some feel-good news. :eek:
Nothing? Don't tell me its all crickets and winds whistling...Not with 1.4 Billion people. Never.
I demand some good news. It may not be from Shenzen or Shanghai...It could be from some other cities.
A new GPU ? New Processor for Supercomputer ? A new Lithography breakthough? A new DRAM/NAND fab. Nothing?!
Click to expand...
tidalwave said:
St


There's old Chinese saying "先死后生" Die first and then reborn.
US pushing to the limit. I kind of like it!

I still don't see China proactively developing its lithography equipment currently. No sense of urgency. Still trying to get by just buying from ASML.

Huawei should get into semiconductor manufacturing using IDM model like samsung. Its been in business for many years yet it never bother. If it started by many years ago, by now it should accumulate alot of experiences already.

If its 5G dream got shattered by this US trade war, then focus on 6G research and focus on all the components, and semiconductor manufacturing and its own EUV and 193nm lithography equipment.. Reborn 10 years from now.
Click to expand...

So you are saying take a step back, regroup and try again in another decade. After all, what is 10 years in the grand scheme of things?
tidalwave said:
There's old Chinese saying "先死后生" Die first and then reborn.
US pushing to the limit. I kind of like it!

I still don't see China proactively developing its lithography equipment currently. No sense of urgency. Still trying to get by just buying from ASML.

Huawei should get into semiconductor manufacturing using IDM model like samsung. Its been in business for many years yet it never bother. If it started by many years ago, by now it should accumulate alot of experiences already.

If its 5G dream got shattered by this US trade war, then focus on 6G research and focus on all the components, and semiconductor manufacturing and its own EUV and 193nm lithography equipment.. Reborn 10 years from now.
Click to expand...

I was more thinking along lines of what China can do to regain some leverage. Xi hinted at using the rare earth card back in May when this all first started, since then the US has pushed and pushed and pushed and China has just stood idlying by and havent pushed back or done anything to fight back at all
 
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Pkp88

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tidalwave said:
According to upcoming changes in US rules, HSMC will get sanctioned by US if it try to manufactured for Huawei.
Likewise for SMIC.
Click to expand...
The thing is we don't know. TSMC's 14nm process maybe too exposed to US derived IP, but would be odd for HSMC/SMIC to follow that same path - they wouldn't be offering differentiated tech which is the whole point. ASML is a European company so I don't think they're exposed to this.
 
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tidalwave

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Pkp88 said:
The thing is we don't know. TSMC's 14nm process maybe too exposed to US derived IP, but would be odd for HSMC/SMIC to follow that same path - they wouldn't be offering differentiated tech which is the whole point. ASML is a European company so I don't think they're exposed to this.
Click to expand...
.
Liang mong song chief architect of SMIC 14nm process, came from TSMC. ASML used parts from US
 
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tidalwave

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If push comes to shove, China can just ban ALL US tech products coming to China. 1/3 of US tech firms will die.
MAD. Huawei would get crushed and try to regroup. Alot of US tech firms die.
Just to get even, name of the game
 
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Pkp88

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tidalwave said:
.
Liang mong song chief architect of SMIC 14nm process, came from TSMC. ASML used parts from US
Click to expand...
But reporting shows that 10nm and below uses <10% US IP, so clearly changes have occurred overtime. The fact that the US has been out of the semiconductor manufacturing space for quite awhile (after out-sourcing everything) has ensured that new progress in field is European/Asia driven.
 
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