Future PLA combat aircraft composition

weig2000

Captain
We've had rumours of a land based variant of J-XY/35 for a while now, it's pretty much expected, and I would say right now it is as guaranteed to emerge as the J-XY/35 (carrier variant) was expected to emerge between 2019-2021.

Given the land based variant, is well, a variant/derivative of the more complex J-XY/35 which has not only already flown but is arguably a more complex and heavily engineered aircraft, it would not surprise me that the land based variant may proceed through its initial stages slightly brisker.

Strictly speaking, it's not clear that PLAAF has committed to a land based variant. Doesn't mean it will not in the end, but their current focus is and should be the mass induction of J-20. At this point, it's not exactly clear what the role of the land based variant would be in the lineup. It's not urgent and they can wait.

On the other hand, it's not the same as when FC-31 was first introduced for SAC, when they were fishing for interest and potential orders either from PLA or export market, with a lot of uncertainties. With J-XY/J-35 already accepted by PLAN, a land based variant would be a nice addition for SAC. And the chance of exporting it is also much higher now.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Strictly speaking, it's not clear that PLAAF has committed to a land based variant. Doesn't mean it will not in the end, but their current focus is and should be the mass induction of J-20. At this point, it's not exactly clear what the role of the land based variant would be in the lineup. It's not urgent and they can wait.

On the other hand, it's not the same as when FC-31 was first introduced for SAC, when they were fishing for interest and potential orders either from PLA or export market, with a lot of uncertainties. With J-XY/J-35 already accepted by PLAN, a land based variant would be a nice addition for SAC. And the chance of exporting it is also much higher now.
Agreed.

The J-20's production should be made priority in order to fulfill the orders by the PLAAF.

Meanwhile, the J-35's R&D focus should be to answer the urgent demand by the PLAN for a carrier-based 5th-generation fighter, as per stated above from Shilao's podcast. Land variant of the J-35 can be dealt with afterwards.

It's definitely easier to develop a land-based variant of a jet fighter from its carrier-based variant, than vice versa.

Screenshot (1479).png

In my opinion, the key goal for China is to field as many 5th-generation fighters as quickly as possible in order to address the threats presented by countries around China that possess F-35s, i.e. the USA, South Korea and Japan. Not forgetting South Korea's own KF-21 Boramae fighter project as well, despite not being a true 5th-generation fighter.

India's 5th-generation AMCA fighter, meanwhile, has begun prototype fabrication works just 3 weeks ago. The model's first flight is expected around 2024.

(I know how some of the guys here think/feel about India, but any potential competitor and adversary to China shall never be underestimated.)

In short:

How many F-35s are expected to be fielded in the East Asian region (both land and carrier-based) << How many J-20s + J-35s should be fielded by China.

The statement above should be the general agreed consensus by both the PLAAF and PLAN, in my honest opinion.
 
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pakje

Junior Member
Registered Member
Strictly speaking, it's not clear that PLAAF has committed to a land based variant. Doesn't mean it will not in the end, but their current focus is and should be the mass induction of J-20. At this point, it's not exactly clear what the role of the land based variant would be in the lineup. It's not urgent and they can wait.

On the other hand, it's not the same as when FC-31 was first introduced for SAC, when they were fishing for interest and potential orders either from PLA or export market, with a lot of uncertainties. With J-XY/J-35 already accepted by PLAN, a land based variant would be a nice addition for SAC. And the chance of exporting it is also much higher now.
Very likely that the export market would be enough for a land-based variant
 

pakje

Junior Member
Registered Member
India's 5th-generation AMCA fighter, meanwhile, has begun prototype fabrication works just 3 weeks ago. The model's first flight is expected around 2024.

(I know how some of the guys here think/feel about India, but any potential competitor and adversary to China shall never be underestimated.)

Very hard to take AMCA serious when they started calling it 5.5 gen
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
India's 5th-generation AMCA fighter, meanwhile, has begun prototype fabrication works just 3 weeks ago. The model's first flight is expected around 2024.
Would be better to focus on HAL Tejas MK I and MK II ... at this rate, it's running blind more or less.

China have the knowledge to build the J-35. It have clear and proficient experiences building and designing planes. J-35 will fit nicely in his niche on a carrier along the j-15.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Strictly speaking, it's not clear that PLAAF has committed to a land based variant. Doesn't mean it will not in the end, but their current focus is and should be the mass induction of J-20. At this point, it's not exactly clear what the role of the land based variant would be in the lineup. It's not urgent and they can wait.

On the other hand, it's not the same as when FC-31 was first introduced for SAC, when they were fishing for interest and potential orders either from PLA or export market, with a lot of uncertainties. With J-XY/J-35 already accepted by PLAN, a land based variant would be a nice addition for SAC. And the chance of exporting it is also much higher now.

My impression is that the land based variant of J-XY/35 (or FC-31) for the PLA is highly likely if not a given at this stage?

That is to say, my expectation for its emergence, and the level of evidence we have for it at this stage, I think is similar to where we were in 2019-2020 for J-XY/35, or in 2009 for J-20.


Certainly, their current focus of course is mass procurement of J-20, but I don't see how that would be contrary to pursuit of a medium weigh 5th generation land based fighter as well to complement it. After all, a land based J-XY/35 (lets say it makes its first flight sometime mid/late this year), won't be ready for initial production until after 2025.
 

weig2000

Captain
My impression is that the land based variant of J-XY/35 (or FC-31) for the PLA is highly likely if not a given at this stage?

That is to say, my expectation for its emergence, and the level of evidence we have for it at this stage, I think is similar to where we were in 2019-2020 for J-XY/35, or in 2009 for J-20.


Certainly, their current focus of course is mass procurement of J-20, but I don't see how that would be contrary to pursuit of a medium weigh 5th generation land based fighter as well to complement it. After all, a land based J-XY/35 (lets say it makes its first flight sometime mid/late this year), won't be ready for initial production until after 2025.

I guess what I was trying to convey is that I don't see an urgency or need to rush out a land based variant. Both PLAAF and PLAN/SAC have much higher priorities currently and in the next several years. Developing and inducting a new stealth fighter would be a distraction and competition for resource/capacity/budget. In other words, PLAAF should be focusing on achieving a critical mass of J-20s, say, 400-500 of them before inducting a new medium weight stealth fighter. SAC/PLAN should focus on making J-XY/J-35 production ready around 2025.

It's likely that WS-19 won't be ready before 2025, and I don't see why PLAAF should procure another new stealth fighter with a pair of non-target engines. Besides, what exactly a land based variant will bring to PLAAF around 2025 that they will badly need? A low cost alternative to J-20? A multi-purpose stealth fighter versus the air superiority J-20? Or simply augmenting the stealth fighter production capacity of CAC (but taking away budget before J-20 fleet reaches the critical mass)? Finally, producing the land based variant for PLAAF will also take away the limited capacity at J-XY/J-35 at SAC initially.

In short, I think a land based variant will very likely be procured by PLAAF in the future, but it would make more sense to do so towards the end of the decade, when the platform becomes more mature, technology more advanced and the doctrine evolved.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I guess what I was trying to convey is that I don't see an urgency or need to rush out a land based variant. Both PLAAF and PLAN/SAC have much higher priorities currently and in the next several years. Developing and inducting a new stealth fighter would be a distraction and competition for resource/capacity/budget. In other words, PLAAF should be focusing on achieving a critical mass of J-20s, say, 400-500 of them before inducting a new medium weight stealth fighter. SAC/PLAN should focus on making J-XY/J-35 production ready around 2025.

It's likely that WS-19 won't be ready before 2025, and I don't see why PLAAF should procure another new stealth fighter with a pair of non-target engines. Besides, what exactly a land based variant will bring to PLAAF around 2025 that they will badly need? A low cost alternative to J-20? A multi-purpose stealth fighter versus the air superiority J-20? Or simply augmenting the stealth fighter production capacity of CAC (but taking away budget before J-20 fleet reaches the critical mass)? Finally, producing the land based variant for PLAAF will also take away the limited capacity at J-XY/J-35 at SAC initially.

In short, I think a land based variant will very likely be procured by PLAAF in the future, but it would make more sense to do so towards the end of the decade, when the platform becomes more mature, technology more advanced and the doctrine evolved.

That would be the case if China were to develop a completely new land based stealth aircraft from scratch. But with J-35 the airframe is basically right there, and if history is any indication naval fighter aircraft could be converted to land based fighter roles very easily. Look no further than Iranian F-14 or the numerous F-18 or F-18E in service with other countries. PLAAF has a very real need for a LO fifth gen fighter.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I guess what I was trying to convey is that I don't see an urgency or need to rush out a land based variant. Both PLAAF and PLAN/SAC have much higher priorities currently and in the next several years. Developing and inducting a new stealth fighter would be a distraction and competition for resource/capacity/budget. In other words, PLAAF should be focusing on achieving a critical mass of J-20s, say, 400-500 of them before inducting a new medium weight stealth fighter. SAC/PLAN should focus on making J-XY/J-35 production ready around 2025.

It's likely that WS-19 won't be ready before 2025, and I don't see why PLAAF should procure another new stealth fighter with a pair of non-target engines. Besides, what exactly a land based variant will bring to PLAAF around 2025 that they will badly need? A low cost alternative to J-20? A multi-purpose stealth fighter versus the air superiority J-20? Or simply augmenting the stealth fighter production capacity of CAC (but taking away budget before J-20 fleet reaches the critical mass)? Finally, producing the land based variant for PLAAF will also take away the limited capacity at J-XY/J-35 at SAC initially.

In short, I think a land based variant will very likely be procured by PLAAF in the future, but it would make more sense to do so towards the end of the decade, when the platform becomes more mature, technology more advanced and the doctrine evolved.

I see where you are coming from -- though I think this discussion is more about medium term fleet procurement/orbat and opportunity costs, than the assessing the credibility of the rumours for the "land based J-XY/35".



From my view, I think a "mid-late maiden flight" for the land based J-XY/35, with a prospective entry into service around 2025-2026, IMO is very much not a rushed timetable, and if anything it is quite a relaxed one. This is for a few reasons:
- The land based J-XY/35 is coming out technically after the standard carrier J-XY/35 has reached its first important milestones
- Both the land based J-XY/35 and standard carrier J-XY/35 are likely to share major subsystems (which will share the benefits in systems commonality like integration, testing, upgrades etc), if not share a degree of major commonality in eventual production as well.
- The land based J-XY/35 will likely be somewhat simpler to develop and test, than the standard carrier J-XY/35, given it will lack the extra engineering and testing needed for J-XY/35 to be carrier compatible.

All of which, is to say that in terms of prioritization, I think the standard carrier J-XY/35 will still be the highest priority, but the J-XY/35 will be a secondary project but will enjoy so much of the testing and experience from the standard carrier J-XY/35, that it can proceed with relatively low risk.


I also do not think that development and procurement of the "land based J-XY/35" (based on the above proposed timeline) necessarily comes at the cost of J-20 procurement.
Expansion of J-20 production capacity and expansion of the PLA's ability to absorb new J-20 production, imo, are not simply dependent on more money. The time needed to build up infrastructure (both larger production lines, as well as the PLA's support infrastructure for J-20s), and the long lead time for curating new aerospace engineers and production personnel and the subsystems line, IMO will place some limits on the pace of procurement of J-20 (or indeed, for any type of military hardware).
That isn't to say J-20 procurement is going to be "slow" -- I personally expect somewhere between 30-40 J-20s to be delivered this year, and going forwards to 2025 and the late 2020s, I wouldn't be surprised if they reach to 60ish J-20s annually as a program peak.

But it does mean that -- say, if they want to achieve 400-500 J-20s by 2025-2026, that probably isn't going to happen simply because I don't think they don't have the long lead infrastructure and personnel on the industry and PLA side to produce them and absorb them, respectively.
That means right now they should be spending money to expand J-20 production and absorption capacity (which I believe they are indeed doing) -- but they probably won't start seeing results from it until a couple of years down the line. That ends up with the question of what else can they spend money on to invest in the medium term future of air power 3-4 years down the line.


... Which takes us back to the question of whether a land based J-XY/35 makes sense for the PLAAF in terms of fleet procurement, in the post 2025 era, when considering the variety of programs the PLAAF will have going on by that period, and consideration of various rate limiting factors etc.
This question has been discussed a few times over the years (more J-20s vs land based J-XY/35, or clean sheet single engine 5th gen vs land based J-XY/35, or more J-20s vs clean sheet single engine 5th gen, etc), with my views articulated most clearly here:


Overall, my position on it still remains the same, with the passage of a year.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
I see where you are coming from -- though I think this discussion is more about medium term fleet procurement/orbat and opportunity costs, than the assessing the credibility of the rumours for the "land based J-XY/35".



From my view, I think a "mid-late maiden flight" for the land based J-XY/35, with a prospective entry into service around 2025-2026, IMO is very much not a rushed timetable, and if anything it is quite a relaxed one. This is for a few reasons:
- The land based J-XY/35 is coming out technically after the standard carrier J-XY/35 has reached its first important milestones
- Both the land based J-XY/35 and standard carrier J-XY/35 are likely to share major subsystems (which will share the benefits in systems commonality like integration, testing, upgrades etc), if not share a degree of major commonality in eventual production as well.
- The land based J-XY/35 will likely be somewhat simpler to develop and test, than the standard carrier J-XY/35, given it will lack the extra engineering and testing needed for J-XY/35 to be carrier compatible.

All of which, is to say that in terms of prioritization, I think the standard carrier J-XY/35 will still be the highest priority, but the J-XY/35 will be a secondary project but will enjoy so much of the testing and experience from the standard carrier J-XY/35, that it can proceed with relatively low risk.


I also do not think that development and procurement of the "land based J-XY/35" (based on the above proposed timeline) necessarily comes at the cost of J-20 procurement.
Expansion of J-20 production capacity and expansion of the PLA's ability to absorb new J-20 production, imo, are not simply dependent on more money. The time needed to build up infrastructure (both larger production lines, as well as the PLA's support infrastructure for J-20s), and the long lead time for curating new aerospace engineers and production personnel and the subsystems line, IMO will place some limits on the pace of procurement of J-20 (or indeed, for any type of military hardware).
That isn't to say J-20 procurement is going to be "slow" -- I personally expect somewhere between 30-40 J-20s to be delivered this year, and going forwards to 2025 and the late 2020s, I wouldn't be surprised if they reach to 60ish J-20s annually as a program peak.

But it does mean that -- say, if they want to achieve 400-500 J-20s by 2025-2026, that probably isn't going to happen simply because I don't think they don't have the long lead infrastructure and personnel on the industry and PLA side to produce them and absorb them, respectively.
That means right now they should be spending money to expand J-20 production and absorption capacity (which I believe they are indeed doing) -- but they probably won't start seeing results from it until a couple of years down the line. That ends up with the question of what else can they spend money on to invest in the medium term future of air power 3-4 years down the line.


... Which takes us back to the question of whether a land based J-XY/35 makes sense for the PLAAF in terms of fleet procurement, in the post 2025 era, when considering the variety of programs the PLAAF will have going on by that period, and consideration of various rate limiting factors etc.
This question has been discussed a few times over the years (more J-20s vs land based J-XY/35, or clean sheet single engine 5th gen vs land based J-XY/35, or more J-20s vs clean sheet single engine 5th gen, etc), with my views articulated most clearly here:


Overall, my position on it still remains the same, with the passage of a year.
Yes, I agree that engine availability is the hard constraint for the production of J-20. Also China must invest to produce WS-19 for other projects (future JF-17, H-20, drones etc) as well. It make sense if China wanted to expand fifth gen planes, that they look into a land based J-35. This would also enable them to capture the export market. All in due time. The carrier based J-35 comes first.
 
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