Fourth Taiwan Strait Crisis

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SunlitZelkova

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Precisely, 100%

US failed when:
  1. Biden threw the US military under the bus by saying "
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    • Implication: US military does not want a confrontation or war with China over Taiwan. This should not inspire confidence about US willingness to defend Taiwan if a meaningless visit gets opposed by the "Mighty/Invincible" US military. PLA should (correctly) read this as weakness on Taiwan.
  2. Biden and Xi Jinping held a telephone conference just days before Pelosi-visit. Biden likely reaffirmed No Change to Taiwan position and No Change to One China Policy to Xi Jinping, hence China's measured and commensurate reaction.
    • Implication: China realizes on the Taiwan question, US engages in showmanship, faux virtue signaling, and meaningless symbolism mainly for domestic political purposes ("Can't be seen as weak, argh!"). It has little-to-zero strategy concerning Taiwan. China just needs to give US a face-saving exit on Taiwan for domestic political purposes, maybe coordinate a false-flag operation with US in which CIA stooges instigate crazies in Taiwan "declare independence" so US can absolve responsibility to intervene.
  3. NYT and US media articles on power struggle between Biden/Pelosi before the trip:
    • Implication: Weakness and no strategy on Taiwan vis-a-vis China.
  4. Weak reaction from US military on China military exercises
    • Implication: US cannot deter China military exercises, China is too powerful.
Overall, this episode exposed US as a weak fraud on Taiwan. Unwilling to do things to fundamentally change the situation, only showmanship, virtue signalling, and meaningless symbolism, mainly for domestic political purposes.

Apologies for replying rather late.

I think this argument is certainly valid but it is important to examine all options, and not make assumptions. The US is physically weak but whether it will ever be capable of realizing it, and what it would actually do in a crisis situation, may be another question.

Again, to be clear, there is nothing wrong with your argument, I would just like to emphasize how it is important to consider all possibilities.

Expanding the nuclear deterrent should be China's number one priority now. Without it, the US could feel pressured to intervene in Taiwan even if it knows it can't win, and may feel a war with China is feasible, if not desirable.

Take for example the instance of Japan just prior to US entry into WWII. Your take feels eerily similar to the way the US calculated Japan's potential actions and vice versa*. I'll outline the similarities in an identical list one by one.
  1. The US likely assumed the Japanese government and military was aware of the economic disparity between the two. It indeed was, numerous reports had been prepared for Japanese leadership detailing the economic comparison between the US and Japan, as has been revealed by recent research. Even the fanatical IJA was aware that Japan didn't stand a chance.
    • Assumed implication: They believed that Japan would make the smart decision and give up their aims in China in favor of keeping Korea and their other Pacific possessions intact and avoiding war.
    • Actual implication: The US failed to underestimate Japan's warped view of the world- i.e. just because the US saw the reality didn't mean Japan did too- and its fanatical determination to become the dominant power in Asia.
  2. Japan continued negotiations with the US all the way up until bombs fell on Pearl Harbor. It seemingly expressed a willingness to find a diplomatic solution to the tension.
    • Assumed implication: Japan's desire for war was not absolute, it could be negotiated with, and despite the poor progress of the negotiations and the increasing hostility in relations between the two, war was not imminent and some degree of peace remained likely.
    • Actual implication: The US failed to recognize that Japan's relations with the US did not exist in a vacuum. Japan was under the assumption that the the world order was changing; the USSR was on the verge of collapse and the US was dilapidated as a result of the Great Depression. As a result Japan was far more willing to cross the river Styx and attack the Western colonial powers than the US had thought.
  3. The Japanese government saw the US as being decadent, corrupt, and too interested in maintaining its own economic prosperity to engage in a prolonged war. Likewise, the whole of the US establishment saw Japan as a backwards nation, run by copy cats and corrupt generals. Neither side believed each other had much fighting power or will to fight.
    • Assumed implication: There was little to no chance of either side engaging in a major conflict because neither had the guts to go all the way.
    • Actual implication: Both sides gave into their biases and severely underestimated each other. Japan, shaped by its warped world view, was all in on going to war with the Western powers, while the US was fully prepared to give up peace to occupy half the world despite the huge economic and human cost.
  4. Japan considered the US reaction to the war in Europe to be weak, seeing it as a sign of isolationism holding sway over the country. The lack of response to the USS Panay incident and the seemingly divided nature of the country, focused on recovering from the Great Depression instead of foreign issues, led it to assume that if a decisive campaign could be fought, the US could be brought to its heels.
    • Assumed implication: The US was too weak to put up a fight in Asia. It's response to German aggression in the decade prior and its domestic issues (the New Deal continued to be divisive and the Republicans called Roosevelt a dictator bent on provoking war).
    • Actual implication: Despite all of these issues, the US retained great strength and as a result of Japan miscalculating the American response to what was supposed to be a demoralizing, decisive strike at Pearl Harbor, America was fully enraged and ready to go to total war.
Nowadays, US strength does not lie in conventional arms or industry, but instead in nuclear weapons. While the tables may have turned in Europe with Russia purportedly relying more on nuclear weapons for defence while NATO holds conventional dominance, it is likely the opposite in Asia- the US is obviously conventionally inferior but it does retain a large nuclear arsenal. I suspect the only reason this isn't acknowledged is because a) there is a tendency in general, even in the supposedly most qualified think tanks of the world, to think that Cold War over = no more nuclear threat and b) the US does not want to appear to be the aggressor and due to political reasons it can't swing it's nuclear stick around in a wonton manner like it could in the 50s.

The possibility that the US government could lash out and launch a full scale intervention over Taiwan should still be seriously considered despite the events of the past weeks. After Ukraine, the US could feel pressured to intervene to stop what it sees as a return to use of military power to achieve policy goals similar to the 1930s once and for all. Despite knowing it lacks conventional superiority it may over rely on it's nuclear arsenal and underestimate China's resolve to take the island. The idea that Taiwan is nothing more than a rally round the flag cause for another corrupt and greedy authoritarian government remains strong in US thinking, i.e. the whole of the US establishment treats China and Taiwan like Iraq and Kuwait. Not the talking heads in the newspapers and online commentary websites, the people who actually hold power and make decisions. We see a similar situation with Russia and Ukraine. In contrast, the US of 60 years ago understood the USSR was not merely an aggressive dictatorship but actually sought to achieve security goals in Cuba and came to a compromise with the latter. It should not be assumed the same can be counted on in the US, not only now but onwards throughout the century.

The danger of a US-China war may have increased rather than been shown to be low. Taiwan isn't merely a South Vietnam to the American empire, it is more like West Berlin. A fall of Taiwan without US intervention would signal the end of American power in the region and be enough of a shock to force the pro-US establishment out of Japan and potentially even South Korea sooner or later. Even if Biden (or his administration, to be more accurate) refuses to accept that, the political and economic establishment will not have it. If it would have it, and was more interested in maintaining its economic fortunes instead of political goals as some have claimed, none of this tension and salami slicing over Taiwan would exist in the first place, and therefore I don't think they have such interests at heart and remain bent on maintaining American dominance in Asia no matter the cost. But instead of being suicidal or being somehow soullessly capable of accepting the economic devastation of a US-China war, they likely don't even understand the consequences of what might happen, just as Japan had no idea what it was actually getting itself into during WWII.

*Again, there is nothing wrong with that argument, even it it seems like I am trying to invalidate it. I simply think the "peaceful reunification is inevitable" opinion that has been going around here is just as dangerous as the calls for war, and that all options need to be considered.
 

NeutralWarrior

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BREAKING: China withdraws promise not to send troops to Taiwan after unification​


China has withdrawn a promise not to send troops or administrators to Taiwan after taking it back, an official document showed on Wednesday, signalling a decision by President Xi Jinping to grant less autonomy than previously suggested.

China's white paper on its position on self-ruled Taiwan follows days of unprecedented Chinese military exercises near the island, which Beijing claims as its territory, in protest against US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's visit last week.

Taiwan rejects China's sovereignty claims, says the island's people should decide its future and vows to defend its democracy.

China had said in two previous white papers on Taiwan, in 1993 and 2000, that it "will not send troops or administrative personnel to be based in Taiwan" after achieving unification.

That line, meant to assure Taiwan it would enjoy autonomy after becoming a special administrative region of China, did not appear in the latest white paper.

China's ruling Communist Party had proposed that Taiwan could return to its rule under a "one country, two systems" model, similar to the formula under which the former British colony of Hong Kong returned to Chinese rule in 1997.

That would offer some autonomy to democratically ruled Taiwan to partially preserve its social and political systems.

A line in the 2000 white paper that said "anything can be negotiated" as long as Taiwan accepts that there is only one China and does not seek independence, is also missing from the latest white paper.

The updated white paper is called "The Taiwan Question and China's Reunification in the New Era". The "new era" is a term commonly associated with Xi's rule.

Taiwan has lived under the threat of Chinese invasion since 1949, when the defeated Republic of China government fled to the island after Mao Zedong's Communist Party won a civil war.

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dasCKD

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Exactly. Look at the US response in BLM riots, Capitol riots massacre, Canadian response to trucker protests

Western "democracies" use violence in quelling protests way more than China does. But it gets covered up because their propaganda machine is strong.
If anything, this is an illustrative example of how vital it is that China puts genuine time, effort, and resources into constructing and utilizing an effective outward-facing propaganda apparatus that can influence opinions abroad. This round seems like it'll be a victory for the Chinese side, but the issue remains that this crisis was able to only resolve so favorably on the Chinese side due to countless self-owns on the side of American and Taiwanese institutional messaging and media. If China wants to effectively use their resources, they should be the ones controlling the direction of the narrative when the next crisis happens instead of hoping for western self-owns. Being proactive is vital.

Whilst this time, the western media had to drive for realistic messaging, it should be noted that this is due to strategic considerations on the American side. They want to prolong the status quo as they probably don't want a war either, at least until they gain microprocessor independence from Taiwan, and so their messaging this time corresponds with China. Are you really willing to take the risk that next time, they won't want to jump to war and instead change to messaging about how evil the Chinese are and how it's absolutely imperative that they attack now and hard? Are you willing to cede that much initiative to the American side?
 

NeutralWarrior

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China released a white paper titled The Taiwan Question and China's Reunification in the New Era

BEIJING, Aug. 10 (Xinhua) -- The Taiwan Affairs Office of the State Council and the State Council Information Office of the People's Republic of China published a white paper titled "The Taiwan Question and China's Reunification in the New Era" on Wednesday.

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The Taiwan Question and China's Reunification in the New Era

The People's Republic of China

The Taiwan Affairs Office of the State Council and The State Council Information Office

August 2022




Contents

Preamble

I. Taiwan Is Part of China - This Is an Indisputable Fact

II. Resolute Efforts of the CPC to Realize China's Complete Reunification

III. China's Complete Reunification Is a Process That Cannot Be Halted

IV. National Reunification in the New Era

V. Bright Prospects for Peaceful Reunification

Conclusion

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Full text of the white paper here:

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Jiang ZeminFanboy

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The end of joint drills.

Give me a big video covering the whole exercises, ETC please give.

FZydcbTVQAM_UO4
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
If anything, this is an illustrative example of how vital it is that China puts genuine time, effort, and resources into constructing and utilizing an effective outward-facing propaganda apparatus that can influence opinions abroad. This round seems like it'll be a victory for the Chinese side, but the issue remains that this crisis was able to only resolve so favorably on the Chinese side due to countless self-owns on the side of American and Taiwanese institutional messaging and media. If China wants to effectively use their resources, they should be the ones controlling the direction of the narrative when the next crisis happens instead of hoping for western self-owns. Being proactive is vital.

Whilst this time, the western media had to drive for realistic messaging, it should be noted that this is due to strategic considerations on the American side. They want to prolong the status quo as they probably don't want a war either, at least until they gain microprocessor independence from Taiwan, and so their messaging this time corresponds with China. Are you really willing to take the risk that next time, they won't want to jump to war and instead change to messaging about how evil the Chinese are and how it's absolutely imperative that they attack now and hard? Are you willing to cede that much initiative to the American side?
Only by first winning the cold war can China afterwards open up the western controlled population to its messaging.

There will be no convincing of an ultranationalist enemy that has been blinded by propaganda since birth unless they witness a catastrophic defeat.

Think about it the reverse way, China is a country that largely does not have major nationalist elements. Kids grow up believing all races and classes are equal, in school they watch Japanese anime, learn English literature, learn European history, and then take vacations in Europe or Japan. Yet, the propaganda of the West has a very hard time breaking inside the country.

In contrast, Americans seldom travel outside America, racism is deeply ingrained into the culture, in every US classroom it is mandated to have an American flag, it is strongly discouraged to learn Chinese, the police force practices unequal treatment to "undesirables", all Americans are expected to show "America first" thinking or face public scrutiny.

So you can see that even in a relatively open country where the people are quite free to have openly internationalist/World citizen tendencies, it is hard to infiltrate with propaganda, then it is 100% impossible to infiltrate US unless regime change can be realized first, because US simply runs a much tigher ship than China does.

You cannot put the cart in front of the horse and expect it to just work out. First, China needs a friendly government in charge of America that lifts all its controls and restrictions, only then can values be spread to them.
 

Biscuits

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An outdated position. Glad that it has been changed
Yes, America thinks it can build up to 12 aircraft carriers and almost 100 destroyers and then ramp up attacks on random countries without attracting any scrutiny at all.

US isn't the only ones who can do a military buildup nor the only ones who can make aggressive forward basing. Taiwan will make a great stepping stone towards keeping the over sized and over aggressive US military where it belongs - not in Asia.
 

sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
If anything, this is an illustrative example of how vital it is that China puts genuine time, effort, and resources into constructing and utilizing an effective outward-facing propaganda apparatus that can influence opinions abroad. This round seems like it'll be a victory for the Chinese side, but the issue remains that this crisis was able to only resolve so favorably on the Chinese side due to countless self-owns on the side of American and Taiwanese institutional messaging and media. If China wants to effectively use their resources, they should be the ones controlling the direction of the narrative when the next crisis happens instead of hoping for western self-owns. Being proactive is vital.

Whilst this time, the western media had to drive for realistic messaging, it should be noted that this is due to strategic considerations on the American side. They want to prolong the status quo as they probably don't want a war either, at least until they gain microprocessor independence from Taiwan, and so their messaging this time corresponds with China. Are you really willing to take the risk that next time, they won't want to jump to war and instead change to messaging about how evil the Chinese are and how it's absolutely imperative that they attack now and hard? Are you willing to cede that much initiative to the American side?
It's difficult. To get to the caliber of western propaganda they'd need native english writers who are used to the style of writing of western propaganda WHILE not falling for it. Look at how Xinhua/GT articles always use weird language and grammar.

The best bet would probably be to set up more SCMP-like publications in Hong Kong/Macau while hiring exclusively western-educated "tankies" like the Grayzone writers and a few liberals as controlled opposition. But then it'll also have to be subtle enough to be considered credible, which might be an issue
 
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chlosy

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Taiwan bill looms, and it could pose ‘direct challenge’ for US-China ties

- Tensions are high, and the White House has tried to delay the Taiwan Policy Act that aims to upgrade ties with the island by designating it as a major non-Nato ally
- Observers say the bill ‘would overturn Sino-US relations’ and could prompt a stronger response from Beijing than House Speaker Pelosi’s visit to Taipei

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Hope China is looking to lose money on her US treasury holdings now, instead of having them frozen when the civil war erupts
 
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