Formation to go against stealth fighters like F22, and F35..

It's quite true. Computer farms have a distinct signature in terms of building. They require temperature controlled buildings with heavy duty power sources running into them. Also, if the Chinese were building new computer farms right now, US sats will see them under construction, and mark their locations.

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This might be a fair point if you were looking in a very undeveloped developing country, where you suddenly had such a structure in the middle of the desert or by some mud brick buildings etc.

But this is China! a huge country with a huge and high tech manufacturing base. There are dozens of advanced manufacturing processes that possess the same requirements as you state above, most of them Electronics and now increasingly, Bio-Mechanical/Medical Science centers.

Most of these Industries tend to cluster for obvious economic reasons in the big Industrial Zones of the Coastal Provinces and it very obviously in such places that a Computer Farm would be hidden.

Anybody who has ever visited a Chinese Industrial Zone, will realise that how huge the places are and just how many of them there are. Unless you had very precise intelligence as to where these facilities were, you would be looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Lots of things can use a computing farm, ranging from Hollywood style digital FX company like Industrial Light and Magic, to a large banking institution, to MMORPG centers like the one used by EVE Online.

I could see F22 have manuverbility against such formation,but they lack bombing capability. As for B-2, I think they could fairly easy be hunted down compare to the stealth fighter and they would become obsolete soon.

gripenator said:

"Radio Silence" from UAVs? I was saying manned fighters generate chatter as there is a human in them. That chatter can be picked up at 250km+ by the Raptor's EW suite. Unmanned UAVs have a datalink feed that can be jammed. Do you follow?
.

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Aren't you revealing yourself when you try to EW from the raptors? You emitting signal to interfere the UCAVs. Doesn't this provide a target for the enemy missile?

Also according to Sinodefence there are number in thousand of old jets that can be converted into UCAVs. So, 40 -50 UCAVs are not a problem.

Finn McCool said:

@Lilzz: This idea is a good one if you can get around the issue of how to find the plane in the first place, which is really what is being discussed here. That is a very difficult proposition, but judged on its tactical merits your idea is as good as any I've heard when it comes to defeating the F-22. The technology of UCAVs has some catching up to do though .And that's not to mention the near impossibility of finding the damn thing in the first place. .

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Cause the F22 is not for bombing mission and they try to provide protection for the B-2.
Hunt for the huge, slow moving B-2s, then the F22 would show up by themselves.

or if F22 try to be air-superior, looking for a fight, then they could come to me instead of searching for them.


Another thing I liketo mention in Asia, there are only a number limited airspace that can launch the stealth fighters. I think the satellite can pick up where they launch. So, evne if the stealth fighters make it back alive, prepare to find other places to land because the original runway might be destroyed by ballistic or cruise missile attack.

Interesting discussions. I'd like to add something, though
large-scale war doesn't involve heavy artilleries only, but also computers, sattelite, and information. In the hypothetical scenario between China and US, spreading virus to computer, exploding the sattelite, and creating an electromagnetic shock in the air through several huge bombs exploded in the air, near the azimuth of satellite, will create a problem for the attackers' side (presumably US). They need to pinpoint the target, thus need constant communication. The defending side still retains the advantage of radar and wired communication to a certain extent!

What it comes down to is this: operation of stealth bombers and fighters depend on a lot of factors: taking off and landing base (as lilzz mentions), constant electronic communication and update, the degradation of the enemy's SAM and fighters, etc.
When it comes to this, the cost of attacking a country as huge as China is costly.

The only cheap and inhumane way to do this is just blowing up the Three Gorges Dam, or places like that. It is supposed to be against the Geneva Convention (I'm not sure about this).

Please continue this interesting discussions. I learn a lot from all sides. I apologize if my comment disrupt the flow of this discussion.

My proposal boils down
this


(with onboard emulator that give a radar signature as advanced fighter.
also with preprogrammed search and destroy routine onboard that even if communication is destroyed by EW during mission, it will still carry out its default onboard routine.)

versus this

Man, its kind of a waste to see a classic warbird like that (J-5 = MiG-17) turned into a target drone. Should have been sold to collectors.

i will attack its base by using long range missiles. If it appears on anti stealth radar, i will fire small neutron missiles that explode approximately near the planes (probably 3 neutron bombs will kill the pilotes for sure)

lilzz said:

I could see F22 have manuverbility against such formation,but they lack bombing capability. As for B-2, I think they could fairly easy be hunted down compare to the stealth fighter and they would become obsolete soon.

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F-22 is rated to carry the JDAM munitions. Secondly, you are seriously discounting the B-2 and for that matter, the B-1 survivability againsts threats. They both carry large quantities of defensive counter measures.

Aren't you revealing yourself when you try to EW from the raptors? You emitting signal to interfere the UCAVs. Doesn't this provide a target for the enemy missile?

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No radar warning receiver yet invented can detect the Raptors LPI AESA radar on active mode. That may change in the future, but the radar can be upgraded as well.

Furthermore, the Growler can not only jam your radar, but also your communication signals. With their command signal down, your drones will fly straight to the ground.

Also according to Sinodefence there are number in thousand of old jets that can be converted into UCAVs. So, 40 -50 UCAVs are not a problem. Cause the F22 is not for bombing mission and they try to provide protection for the B-2.

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The US avionics capability has the ability to recognized the type of aircraft based on the return signal. So if you have 50 UCAV and 10 actual fighters, the radar will point out which of them are the 10 actual fighters.

Hunt for the huge, slow moving B-2s, then the F22 would show up by themselves.

or if F22 try to be air-superior, looking for a fight, then they could come to me instead of searching for them.

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Once again you are discounting the defensive measures of the B-2 that are "in addition" to its low observability.

F-22 is as dangerous weather its providing HVU cap, offensive counter air, BARCAP, etc.

Another thing I liketo mention in Asia, there are only a number limited airspace that can launch the stealth fighters. I think the satellite can pick up where they launch. So, evne if the stealth fighters make it back alive, prepare to find other places to land because the original runway might be destroyed by ballistic or cruise missile attack.

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That depends on the type of munitions used on the ballistic/cruise missile. IF they are just your typical blast fragmentation warheads, runway repair is not that difficult.

You are also assuming that the US will not do the same to you.

Furthermore, the Growler can not only jam your radar, but also your communication signals. With their command signal down, your drones will fly straight to the ground.

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assuming they are not autopilot. i believe any future UCAV will be based around cruise missile technology. i say don't bother with manned fighter, just pump UCAV into the area in the 100s and overwhelm the F22...

i have strong doubt the F22 will operate near naval planes because that would limit most of it advantages (speed, range and surprise) but if Growler were in the area, you would think radiation missiles wouldn't be launch in the dozen with UCAV following those missiles and engaging anything trying to counter the missiles. given the fact that UCAV and missile are naturally smaller, it would be possible to build them just as stealthy as the F22 and remove the first shoot advantage as well.

UCAV really have the chance of being the "dreadnaught factor" in aerial combat. don't you?

The US avionics capability has the ability to recognized the type of aircraft based on the return signal. So if you have 50 UCAV and 10 actual fighters, the radar will point out which of them are the 10 actual fighters.

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doesn't the ID requires a closer range than the max detection range? if would be hard to pull if the fighters are at the back of the pack with the UCAV coming close to detecting the F22. anyway, i doubt fighters should engage in the first wave, i say UCAV 1st wave and fighter to close in after engagement to ensure the kill.