Formation to go against stealth fighters like F22, and F35..

gripenator

Just Hatched
Registered Member
There's recent quote from bruce wright saying the US conventional planes will have difficulties in penetrating Chinese airdefense. It will requires the stealth planes. So, for those who mentions wild weasel, and planes /w ECM,I don't think they can do it.


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Wright noted the Air Force's fleet is older than ever before.

The average age of the F-15 fighters, for example, is about 24 years, while that of the KC-135 Stratotanker, a mid-air refueling plane that is a key element in the Air Force's ability to conduct long-range missions, is 46 years.

Wright, who was at this air base on Japan's southern island of Okinawa to meet with local commanding officers, said the improvement in Chinese air defenses has made China's airspace "difficult if not impossible" to penetrate with the kind of U.S. fighters — F-15s and F-16s — now deployed in Japan.

Doing so would require the F-22 or the Joint Strike Fighter, which both have stealth capabilities. The Air Force sent a dozen F-22s to Japan earlier this year, but only for a temporary deployment. It has no plans to bring more here permanently.

The Joint Strike Fighter, or F-35, is not yet combat-ready.


Keep in mind Wright is a USAF PACCOM bean counter-meaning he has his own "domain" to secure funding for. PACCOM AF is in a sorry state right now with 30yrs+ F-15Cs and F-16s based at Misawa and elsewhere that make frequent rotations to Iraq for CAS.

Penetrating PRC airspace is very difficult with F-15Cs and F-16s in the presence of HQ-10/S-300PMU-2 or any other modern variants w/o EF-18 SH support yet not entirely impossble as the PRC has relatively few modern SAM systems in relation to area and operates a point defense of vital areas ie. Taiwan Strait, Beijing etc. meaning you just fly in over Hong Kong or from Yunnan or anywhere else where Air Defense is relatively sporadic and easy to jam/kill.

And then again nobody was planning to do so anyway except with F-22s and B-2s (at night).
 

gripenator

Just Hatched
Registered Member
@Lilzz:
Does anyone think it would be possible to have a twin-seater fighter, with one pilot flying it and the other controlling several UCAVs (ie taking direct control when making an attack run). That would allow one plane to counter the F-22s superior manuverabilty by atttacking it from several directions at once and taxing the pilots ability to choose which is the most pressing target, giving the opposing pilot precious time to close the range. Also if you have multiple radars pointing at the F-22, your chances of locking it rae going to improve, especially if you're datalinked.

I know Dassault was proposing a "mothership" Rafale controlling several Neuron UAVs but the current status of this is unclear. But given the current state of Chinese tech in datalinks, a datalink system controlling J-6 UAVs will be vulnerable to jamming in light of the USAF's jamming capabilities.

As for getting a lock on the Raptor, you might want to read accounts of Red Flag from OPFOR drivers of Eagles and even an RAAF F-18A pilot as to their experiences.
 
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Roger604

Senior Member
Someone with good satellite reconnaissance will detect the construction and possible location of such computer farms.

Okay this is hilarious.

I can assure you that the USAF is not the least worried about the VERA-E or its successor the BORAP to their F-22s as the capabilities of both systems have already been tested against the F-22A-with a predictable outcome.

O RLY? :D

Your "waves of UAVs" are ridculous-you simply don't know the vectors of approaching F-22s in order to scramble J-6 UAVs in that narrow time frame-

You simply need to know the location at a fixed point in time to direct aircraft to search and intercept.

the PLAAF does not have enough surplus J-6 UAVs anyway for you to station around the 40-50 in each coastal MR needed for this kind of strategy to work (this is assuming you need to cover all sectors),

You think PLAAF can't muster 50 J-7 UAV's? LOL.

the F-22 driver is certainly smart enough to distinguish a swarm of drones from "real" targets-its simple to sort out datalink feed transmissions from radar emmissions, chatter etc. generated by manned fighters.

Total silliness. There's something called radio silence. EW isn't spooky magic you know.

J-10s simply won't cut it. If the AN/APG-63(V)1 on the F-15Cs at Red Flag can't get a lock on that "motherf**** damn piece of s***" in the words of an Eagle driver despite having the Raptor in visual range-what exactly makes you think a J-10's Grifo or some other PESA can do so?

Ever heard of the term "propaganda"?

"Your own stealth fighter":roll:

Dream on. Maybe in 15-20 years time.

:D You're in for a big surprise.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Okay this is hilarious.

It's quite true. Computer farms have a distinct signature in terms of building. They require temperature controlled buildings with heavy duty power sources running into them. Also, if the Chinese were building new computer farms right now, US sats will see them under construction, and mark their locations.

You simply need to know the location at a fixed point in time to direct aircraft to search and intercept.

Your target is moving. At a very fast speed, faster than most of your jets. It may also leave your limited radar coverage. By the time you have pinpointed one of them and have dispatched aircraft to intercept, the target would already be miles away.

You think PLAAF can't muster 50 J-7 UAV's? LOL.

Think you can muster 50 ground controllers and operate 50+ data links? Also, think about maintenance, 50 plus aircraft to keep in the air 24/7 is a lot of work. In order to keep 50+ aircraft in the air, you need at least double that on the ground being worked on. Big maintenance tail behind you, and that requires money and highly trained personnel.

Total silliness. There's something called radio silence. EW isn't spooky magic you know.

Every electrical device has a electronic signature when turned on. Whatever be it a radar, a data link, computers, etc, they all have a signature. Radio silence just means that you are not broadcasting messages that can be intercepted and decrypted.

A F-22 driver (or any of the latest 4+ generation fighter) can determine the source and type of most radars out there. Each radar type has a unique signature that can be tracked and stored on a computer. When you have radar emissions being broadcasted and you pick them up, you can compare it to your database, and figure out the radar type. From there, you can determine the platform. Therefore, I can tell the difference from a Su-27 from a MiG-29 just from the radar emissions.

Ever heard of the term "propaganda"?
Right... and the last couple of CF bug drivers that went against F-22's didn't have much to smile about when they came back home when they faced F-22's...
 

gripenator

Just Hatched
Registered Member
O RLY? :D



You simply need to know the location at a fixed point in time to direct aircraft to search and intercept.



You think PLAAF can't muster 50 J-7 UAV's? LOL.



Total silliness. There's something called radio silence. EW isn't spooky magic you know.



Ever heard of the term "propaganda"?



:D You're in for a big surprise.


Yes really you idiot, I'm telling you as someone who is in the know about the "borrowing" from the Czechs of the BORAP and the outright shipping direct to an unammed AFB of six VERA-E sets for USAF technical evaluation.

Read my previous posts. You don't know the vectors of approach of the Raptor nor can you find out without highly sophisticated future tech which you plainly do not have.

If you have eyes I'm saying they can't muster 50-60 J-6 UAVs per Military Region at the moment or in the next year.

"Radio Silence" from UAVs? I was saying manned fighters generate chatter as there is a human in them. That chatter can be picked up at 250km+ by the Raptor's EW suite. Unmanned UAVs have a datalink feed that can be jammed. Do you follow?

Ever heard of a brain and using logic or technical specs to back up you points?

Sure I will be, the J-12/J-13/J-XX are only wind tunnel models ATM and when they appear I wonder just how LO they will be. Jumping from a J-10 to F-22 like fighter is like driving a cart in the Middle Ages to driving a Ferrari in 15-20 years time. The technology gap is just too great.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
^ I see that you've wholly bought into the Pentagon's propaganda machine. You talk of EW like it's some spooky magical spell.

Lest I shatter your fantasies too quickly, I will only say this:

There is already a prototype stealth fighter flying above China, but it's not the F-22!
 

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
It's quite true. Computer farms have a distinct signature in terms of building. They require temperature controlled buildings with heavy duty power sources running into them. Also, if the Chinese were building new computer farms right now, US sats will see them under construction, and mark their locations.

Not really. Almost any industrial-style building can hold a server farm.

If you were talking about a country that had no significant industry then I suppose the power infrastructure might possibly attract some attention. But that's not the case with China, a country with tens of thousands of factories.

"Radio Silence" from UAVs? I was saying manned fighters generate chatter as there is a human in them. That chatter can be picked up at 250km+ by the Raptor's EW suite. Unmanned UAVs have a datalink feed that can be jammed. Do you follow?

I think he meant radio silence from the fighters. The communications between both the fighters and UAVs is just short bursts of encoded digital data. There's no reason the little bursts of signal from either a fighter or UAV should appear significantly different to an outsider who can't decode the transmission.

If you recorded a lot of the transmissions over time you might be able to figure out some sort of larger pattern to distinguish the two, but obviously nobody is going to grant that sort of access.

A F-22 driver (or any of the latest 4+ generation fighter) can determine the source and type of most radars out there. Each radar type has a unique signature that can be tracked and stored on a computer. When you have radar emissions being broadcasted and you pick them up, you can compare it to your database, and figure out the radar type. From there, you can determine the platform. Therefore, I can tell the difference from a Su-27 from a MiG-29 just from the radar emissions.

You need to have the signal in your database, and it needs to be sufficiently different from other signals in the database that you can tell the difference. If the same model of radar is being used in different planes then it will still have the same signature. And within a single model, there can be multiple operating modes and minor upgrades that will change the signature. So your database has to be pretty rich and up-to-date.

I think this is where a lot of people get way too cocky. Just because these things worked against developing countries with well-known equipment doesn't mean it will work against a sophisticated enemy who is constantly developing new toys.

Having said that, I have no doubt that current U.S. tech is enough to penetrate Chinese defenses. But I think it's a mistake to assume it would be easy or cheap in terms of lost lives and equipment.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Gripenator, restrain yourself for calling other members as idiots:mad: I'll watch this occasion trough my fingers, but from next such remark you will get yourself a warning! I strongly suggest you to take a another look for our forum rules and regulations

Roger, do Not, and I will say this again, DO NOT use language like O RLY?. Next such spot from you and you will also get warning.


Gollevainen
Moderator chieftain
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I suggest everyone read this article first.

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It shows the strengths and weaknesses of stealth from both the attackers and the defenders.

Here is an excerpt

Counters to Stealth

Because stealth is so important to current air
operations and military strategy, it is reasonable
to ask if and when it might be effectively
countered. Historians contend that every military
invention in history has been countered by new
inventions or tactics, in due time. The radar game
illustrates this principle, too. Radar changed the
survivability duel during the Battle of Britain in
1940. Stealth changed it back fifty years later, in
the Persian Gulf War of 1991. The most relevant
question to ask is not “can stealth be countered?”
but “how difficult is it to counter stealth with
known technology?”

The radar range equation that demonstrates how
lower RCS reduces the range of detection contains
several variables. To counter stealth with a monostatic
radar, the air defense radar would have to
greatly increase its gain at the receiver. The way to
do this would be to greatly increase the power of
the system. If the target aircraft had an RCS reduction
of 1,000 the radar power would have to
increase by a factor of 1,000 to detect it at the same
range as a non-stealthy aircraft. However, increasing
power is easier at long wavelengths, not at the
short, rapid frequencies commonly used for fire
control. Ultra-wide band radar poses a similar
problem. An ultra-wide band pulse could emit
waves at several different frequencies hoping to
catch the stealth aircraft at a weak point in its
RCS reduction. But transmitting over a wide band
diminishes the power in each band, cutting the
efficiency of the radar.

The second issue in discussions of counter-stealth
is that stealth aircraft are designed against monostatic
radars, the type used in nearly all military systems.
Monostatic radar couples the transmitter and
receiver at the same place, a process that simplifies
the crucial function of distance tracking. In theory,
a bistatic radar that placed the transmitter in one
location and the receiver in another might be able
to pick up what might be called the “trailing” RCS
that is directed away from the monostatic radar.
However, “bistatic radars, while simple in concept,
have many fundamental technical and operational
issues to overcome,” according to John
Shaeffer, radar cross section engineer at Marietta
Scientific in Georgia. The receiver antenna beam
must intercept its companion transmit beam, and
follow the transmit pulse which is moving at the
speed of light. Unless the transmitter and receiver
pulses are synchronized, distance measurement is
impossible. Even a workable bistatic radar must
then address the problem of how much volume of
airspace it can scan at a given power setting in a
given time. When the receiver, transmitter and target
are located on a straight line, the receiver can be
overwhelmed by the transmitter pulse, which hides
the target’s radar return. As Shaeffer put it, “this is
similar to looking into the sun for light scattered
from Venus.”1

The RCS reduction of stealth aircraft is difficult
to counter. Improvements in radar must go a very
long way to match the performance they were
designed to achieve against non-stealthy aircraft.
Concerns about countering stealth should pale in
comparison to those about the known and increasing
threats to conventional aircraft. The day will
probably come when reusable hypersonic military
spaceplanes replace jets as the primary vehicles
for ensuring aerospace dominance. Until then,
for as long as jet aircraft offer the most reliable
option for air superiority and air attack, stealth
will be indispensable.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I don't find this article to be "intelligent" at all.


"If the target aircraft had an RCS reduction
of 1,000 the radar power would have to
increase by a factor of 1,000 to detect it at the same
range as a non-stealthy aircraft. "

This is assuming you spread out the emission beam. You can greatly increase the emission power by focusing the beam. This is where phase arrays and AESA comes in.

Because the radio signal received is 1000X weaker, the important thing is, you still received it. You take this signal then amplify it. SAW devices, radio frequency processors, digital signal processors, etc,. Our systems today are a lot more sensitive and can discern and process much weaker signals. In fact we are so confident of processing very weak signals that this has become the basis for LPI radar technologies like pulse compression.


This also solves the problem with wide band radar

"“this is similar to looking into the sun for light scattered
from Venus.”"

This is a bad analogy because you can in fact measure starlight peering through the circumference of the sun. That's how you are able to prove that gravity is able to bend light. There is something called taking that output, and knowing what it is exactly, filter ignore and cancel it. In bistatic radar, the emitter does not have to be shining directly at the receiver because you can always intelligently control the direction of the emission. What the receiver gets are sidelobs, which can ignore and cancel from the receiving side, or greatly reduce from the emission side, through focusing and narrowing beam techniques like phase shifting.
 
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