Falklands War, 1982, Thread

[Obi Wan Russell]

Harrier taking off from Atlantic conveyor

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Harriers on the deck of Atlantic conveyor

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uhmmm ....not an aircraft carrier......but still harrier were landing and taking off from her deck with hardpoints and stores on them, but not an aircraft carrier

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Yes that is what I said. Those Harriers could land and take off from any suitably sized helideck, even with stores under the wings. That does not make the ship an 'Aircraft Carrier'. During the Falklands War Sea Harriers landed, refuelled and launched vertically from the LPDs Fearless and Intrepid in San Carlos water. They didn't become Aircraft carriers by virtue of doing this. I stand by what I said, Atlantic Conveyor was an Auxiliary Aircraft Transport, with NO maintenance facilities, No ability to rearm or refuel aircraft on board. It's well known and acknowledged that when taking off vertically, the Harrier family is severely restricted in both fuel and payload, hence the rolling take off and ski jump method normally employed. The Shars and Harriers transported south on Atlantic Conveyor as well as all the helicopters on board were never intended to be 'operated' from the ship, they would simply be flown off on arrival, the Shars and Harriers going straight to the carriers and the helicopters would have been flown ashore once she arrived off the landing beaches.

I transported a helicopter several years ago on the back of a 45ft semi trailer. At no time did it become an 'Aircraft Carrier' in the accepted meaning of the term. As stated in my previous post, the MVs Astronomer, Atlantic Causeway and Contender Bezant did receive hangars and maintenance facilities to OPERATE helicopters and served as Auxiliary ASW Helicopter Carriers with the Task Force, but even then none of them had facilities for Sea Harriers beyond refuelling them if necessary. No munitions for the Shars were carried by these ships and they had no runway or ski jump fitted, so the term Aircraft carrier does not apply.

 

[b787]

Yes that is what I said. Those Harriers could land and take off from any suitably sized helideck, even with stores under the wings. That does not make the ship an 'Aircraft Carrier'. , but even then none of them had facilities for Sea Harriers beyond refuelling them if necessary. No munitions for the Shars were carried by these ships and they had no runway or ski jump fitted, so the term Aircraft carrier does not apply.

To fly aircraft, you need mechanics, fuel and spare parts, once you have that, aircraft can fly, it was an aircraft carrier, it simply was not the best and the main aircraft carrier, HMS Invincible was a better and the main aircraft carrier, but when a Ship allows an aircraft to land and take off it means it has mechanics to give service to the aircraft, mechanics need tools and spare parts to keep those aircraft flying, taking off and land, so please officially were not aircraft carriers, but they were carrying Harriers and allowing Harriers take off and land with Hard points and stores, it was an aircraft carrier, a good one, well it was not so good but it allowed helos and harriers to land and take off, it did not use cranes to pass the aircraft from the ship to a dock or another ship

Do you see a crane passing the Harrier from the ship to a dock? or is it flying by it self?

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[TerraN_EmpirE]

June 19 1982 This is taken from the Chicago tribune and was a reprint from the Daily Express

His royal highness gets high marks for courage


By Janet Cawley



LONDON-Prince Andrew, 22. second in line to the British throne and a helicopter pilot with the Royal Navy task force in the Falklands, risked his Iffie as a decoy target, furing deadly Exocet missiles away from British ships, press reports from Stanley said Fridav.

Correspondent Tony Snow of the Sun newspaper said the prince flew a navy helicopter behind the carrier Invincible. His assignment was to make the mis. siles swerve toward the helicopter in- stead of toward the ship. Snow said the prince told him his biggest worry was being accidentally hit by one of the British missiles being fired back at the Argentines.

Prince Andrew, a Sea King pilot air- lifting supplies from the Invincible, flew Into Stanley Thursday and toured Stan- ley in a requisitioned Arpentine Jeep

Friday. Independent Television News reporter Michael Nicholson said that when the prince discovered an open telephone line from the supply ship Belvedere, anchored In the Stanley Hiar. bor, he "apologetically asked If he could call the queen.")

"I asked to be put through to Buck- ingham Palace," the prince told another reporter, "and the line was so clear it was like speaking to London from Edinburgh.

"MY MOTHiER was In - It was about the right time in the evening. She was quite surprised to hear from me. She asked me to pass on how proud she was of everyone and to say how marvelously all the troops had done."

Andrew said his worst moment during the fighting was when he saw the con- ship Atlantic Conveyor hit.

"It was quite horrific," he said. "It was something I'll never forget.

The only other time I was really

Prince Andrew:

I/ asked to be put through to Buckingham Palace" from Stanley.

frightened was when I was told to put on gear and invited to lie on the deck.

"Being made to lie down on the ship is the most lonely feeling in the world."

AS HE DROVE around Stanley. the prince joked, "It's really rather a nice little town but a bit muddier than I

expected. A perfect place to bring my bride on my honeymoon."

Other British sailors described acts of heroism by Prince Andrew and his crew. Seaman Michael Chapman told Snow that when he and 25 shipmates from the Atlantic Conveyor were adrift in their life rafts after Exocet missiles devastated the ship, Andrew helped res- cue them.

I was one of the last to be winched up," Chapman said. When I got Inside the helicopter, one of my pals pointed to the copilot and said it was Prince Andrew.

He was very cool, just like the rest of the helicopter crew. He asked me how many more men were on the life raft.

"We tried to thank the crew after- wards, but I never got to see the prince again. He and the rest of the crew did a great job. It would be nice if I could buy them a pint to say Thanks' one day."

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[TerraN_EmpirE]

TV interview June 26th 1982 Port Stanley. Prince Andrew.

Note "When we are invited."

 

[b787]

BRITAIN STRENGTHENS ITS NAVAL FORCE WITH MORE PLANES
By DREW MIDDLETON, Special to the New York Times
Published: April 15, 1982
LONDON, April 14— Britain today strengthened the air component of the expeditionary force headed for the Falkland Islands. British military planners said the move would increase the prospect for successful landings in islands should fighting develop.

The Royal Navy announced that Atlantic Conveyor, an 18,146-ton container ship capable of 24 knots, would be chartered to carry additional Harrier jump jets to the South Atlantic. This will bring the number of Harriers available to over 40.

The present plan is for the additional Harriers to take off from Atlantic Conveyor and join the other planes on the Invincible and the Hermes, the two carriers with the fleet.

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[TerraN_EmpirE]

No one is disputing that it was used to transport and fly aircraft B747.

 

[Obi Wan Russell]

No one is disputing that it was used to transport and fly aircraft B747.

Exactly. They came aboard an Aircraft TRANSPORT, not an Aircraft CARRIER. They flew aboard and left without being refuelled, or armed, and the ship had no capacity to do either, They were just 'self loading cargo' and neither the ship nor the aircraft aboard her could have been employed operationally at any point. After the Harriers had transferred to the carriers they could be refuelled, armed and the pilots briefed for sorties. None of which could be done aboard Atlantic Conveyor She was just a Cargo Ship, and nothing more. When they did transfer to Hermes and Invincible they only had a light fuel load for the short hop, and no weapons.

Back in 1979, one of the RN's first Sea Harriers made a publicity appearance by landing in the parking lot of a BBC studio in Birmingham (piloted by Sharkey Ward himself). It also took off from that parking lot a while later, but at no point did the parking lot become an 'Air Base', and Atlantic Conveyor was never an 'Aircraft carrier', just a cargo ship. Here's a picture of an early Sea Harrier trial landing aboard the RFA Olwen; are you suggesting she became an aircraft carrier too?

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

An Aircraft carrier from a transport, And A claim of attacking one based on a misidentification of the HMS Avenger a Type 21 frigate by pilots under fire and in poor conditions with the last of Argentina's Air to Surface Exocet missile.

 

[b787]

Exactly. They came aboard an Aircraft TRANSPORT, not an Aircraft CARRIER. They flew aboard and left without being refuelled, or armed, and the ship had no capacity to do either,

To answer you the best way is

Why do they need to carry extra Harriers in the conveyor?
Why Invincible did not carry these harriers from the start of the operations?

When the Conveyor was sink did some helicopters were lost?

Obviously trying to say it is a transport does not hold any waters, the harriers could fly with stores fuel tanks at least, once they lost the conveyor they lost an auxiliary aircraft carrier, not the main carrier, but a ship with the ability to allow landings and takeoffs of Harrier jump jets

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[TerraN_EmpirE]

The Invincible was classed as a light carrier she maxed out at 18 harriers and that's stripping her of helicopters. The USNS Chesty Puller does the samething. They are not classified as carriers because when push comes to shove they are built to support not face combat operations. The conveyor was being used to carry spares.