F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Real truth is that hundreds are being produced and sold around the world. Countries like the UAE jump at the acquisition opportunity and many more have to wait in line.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
It’s the cost and what is needed at the heart of this.
The cost has come down per unit but preflight it’s going to be expensive. The USAF has to date had a requirement for 1765 F35. The proposal would in theory cap F35A for the USAF at 1,050 with around 700 new build F16V. However these would be built in the South Carolina plant slated for export F16s not the established Texas line. Which means that the F35 lines in Texas would still be open meaning that the USAF could turnaround and say, situation changed we need more F35A and trade off F16. Also keep in mind the USAF has the largest F16 legacy fleet which are currently undergoing refurbishment to F16V configuration meaning some of that 700 might not even be needed as they could at least in theory SLEP some of the younger F16 in service.
Really what this is about is that the USAF is five or six air forces in one with the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve requirements that don’t have demands like stealth but have stricter budget maintenance demands. The USAF former Secretary talked about maintaining a mixed force of Fifth Gen and Fourth Gen machines.
I mean 1050(F35)+300(F22) is already far more than Russia or China are likely to have by the mid 2030s.
Then add in 300 (F15EX/F15E)+ >700(F16) is what 2,350 modern fighters. Then you factor in an unknown number of emerging Sixth gens and unmanned loyal wingman. Not even counting additional USN and USMC but this is already far more than the next few Air Forces combined.
The cost has come down per unit but preflight it’s going to be expensive. The USAF has to date had a requirement for 1765 F35. The proposal would in theory cap F35A for the USAF at 1,050 with around 700 new build F16V. However these would be built in the South Carolina plant slated for export F16s not the established Texas line. Which means that the F35 lines in Texas would still be open meaning that the USAF could turnaround and say, situation changed we need more F35A and trade off F16. Also keep in mind the USAF has the largest F16 legacy fleet which are currently undergoing refurbishment to F16V configuration meaning some of that 700 might not even be needed as they could at least in theory SLEP some of the younger F16 in service.
Really what this is about is that the USAF is five or six air forces in one with the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve requirements that don’t have demands like stealth but have stricter budget maintenance demands. The USAF former Secretary talked about maintaining a mixed force of Fifth Gen and Fourth Gen machines.
I mean 1050(F35)+300(F22) is already far more than Russia or China are likely to have by the mid 2030s.
Then add in 300 (F15EX/F15E)+ >700(F16) is what 2,350 modern fighters. Then you factor in an unknown number of emerging Sixth gens and unmanned loyal wingman. Not even counting additional USN and USMC but this is already far more than the next few Air Forces combined.
Assuming US economy is not affected by COVID. If so, such targets seem unrealistic. Already we are seeing Arleigh Burke Flight III having trouble because of COVID.
UAE buying F-35 is a given. UAE is never going to buy Russian in the foreseeable future. It's more about politics than capability of aircraft really. Also, US can bully with CAATSA to prevent countries from buying Russian.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
That’s assuming to near term. Both the ship building and fighter construction is planed out years in advance.
The plan for this would kick in 2023 for first buys. That’s two years out. With F16 buys or F35 buys past the end of the decade.
The USAF has placed F35 Full rate production order on hold due to COVID. Yet the lines are still active.
Your assumption has less to do with the US economy than with lockdowns well past the two year window. With vaccinations on the rise and lock downs already lifting back log demand is starting to right.
Problem is the next few military doesn't regard the aircrafts as main weapon in any war.
Most likely the USA throwing now good money after the bad into the hole named "mighty aircraft based war" dream.
Russia likes to buy SAMs instead of fighter jets, China same.
Many cases I feels like China playing GO, Russia Chess and USA snakes and ladders .
Up to this point the only luck of USA was the relative size of military, and its covered all inefficiency , but now this advantage eroding fast.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
So far it’s Sams 1 Fighters and bombers 49.
The limitations of line of sight, Altitude, identification, missile range and speed mean that SAMS are a fixed defense that has holes. You have to layer on other systems to gap fill. You say it’s like Go. Yet a Sam site is more like a rooked King.
The king radar the rook missile launcher and a number of smaller defensive weapons in place to keep it from being flanked by a threat outside its comfort zone.
A high altitude system with a medium system with a close in last line.
Russian fans love to point to the Saudi Arabia oil tanks that were attacked yet guarded by PAC as a failure of the PAC system. The problem of course is PAC is a medium altitude system meant to defend against attack by IRBM and fighters. The attack thought was by Cruise missile and low performance drones at low altitude.
That would require a whole different system. We have seen Israelis rip apart Russian supplied Pantsir systems in Syria and go right past S300 why? Because the system was not designed to take on what it was facing or what it was facing was equipped well enough that the system was spent.
Or the claims of S400 going to mean island X off China’s coast can’t launch aircraft. Yet curvature of the earth means that it’s only really able to see aircraft at max range at max altitude. And not even able to attack them.
Or So called Counter stealth systems that are only able to tell you that something is in that direction. It might be a threat or maybe a cloud. Or flocks of birds.
The limitations of line of sight, Altitude, identification, missile range and speed mean that SAMS are a fixed defense that has holes. You have to layer on other systems to gap fill. You say it’s like Go. Yet a Sam site is more like a rooked King.
The king radar the rook missile launcher and a number of smaller defensive weapons in place to keep it from being flanked by a threat outside its comfort zone.
A high altitude system with a medium system with a close in last line.
Russian fans love to point to the Saudi Arabia oil tanks that were attacked yet guarded by PAC as a failure of the PAC system. The problem of course is PAC is a medium altitude system meant to defend against attack by IRBM and fighters. The attack thought was by Cruise missile and low performance drones at low altitude.
That would require a whole different system. We have seen Israelis rip apart Russian supplied Pantsir systems in Syria and go right past S300 why? Because the system was not designed to take on what it was facing or what it was facing was equipped well enough that the system was spent.
Or the claims of S400 going to mean island X off China’s coast can’t launch aircraft. Yet curvature of the earth means that it’s only really able to see aircraft at max range at max altitude. And not even able to attack them.
Or So called Counter stealth systems that are only able to tell you that something is in that direction. It might be a threat or maybe a cloud. Or flocks of birds.
People are missing out on the big picture. The F-35 is a pretty awesome piece of kit but it has one mission critical "failure" because the US is now focusing everything on China. To take on China, they want to have much, much greater range. The calculus involves 5th gen fighters stationed in Asia and aircraft available from carriers. All of those need range to attack Chinese positions and PLAN. PLAN is totally exposed but to reach targets on the mainland, they need to get past the PLAN and islands so that US carriers can be stationed right next to the coastlines. Do all that before thousands of Chinese cruise missiles and ballistic missiles are fired at those Asian bases and even the carriers.
If they had an extremely stealth (low flight/ high speed/ even lower signatures) that could allow them to fly as far as Tibet from those bases and carriers positioned well outside of PLAN's and mainland missile's engagement spheres, then they could do as they please. The F-35 doesn't give them anywhere close to that range with weapons and some combat maneuvers. One of the main requirements of their 6th gen platform is to extend the range of the fighter to perform strikes and air superiority at least as far as coastal provinces. Since the F-35 doesn't offer this, their next step in weapons procurement is to realise these capabilities and be able to truly bring the fight to China.
Therefore all the rush to bring 6th gen into service is so that they regain the momentum of being able to call the shots. At the moment, Chinese access denial will make it at least too expensive an exercise to attempt such an engagement. Once they have penetrating counter air, their carriers can sit comfortably outside PLA's engagement sphere while launching attacks as they please. Asian bases will be up for grabs but interceptor missiles are probably cheaper and easier to build than ballistic missiles, hypersonics and cruise missiles. While that problem may be settled by attrition, the carriers will be able to regain their effectiveness without becoming quite as exposed to perform their jobs.
If they had an extremely stealth (low flight/ high speed/ even lower signatures) that could allow them to fly as far as Tibet from those bases and carriers positioned well outside of PLAN's and mainland missile's engagement spheres, then they could do as they please. The F-35 doesn't give them anywhere close to that range with weapons and some combat maneuvers. One of the main requirements of their 6th gen platform is to extend the range of the fighter to perform strikes and air superiority at least as far as coastal provinces. Since the F-35 doesn't offer this, their next step in weapons procurement is to realise these capabilities and be able to truly bring the fight to China.
Therefore all the rush to bring 6th gen into service is so that they regain the momentum of being able to call the shots. At the moment, Chinese access denial will make it at least too expensive an exercise to attempt such an engagement. Once they have penetrating counter air, their carriers can sit comfortably outside PLA's engagement sphere while launching attacks as they please. Asian bases will be up for grabs but interceptor missiles are probably cheaper and easier to build than ballistic missiles, hypersonics and cruise missiles. While that problem may be settled by attrition, the carriers will be able to regain their effectiveness without becoming quite as exposed to perform their jobs.
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