F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

tphuang

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I'm going to take a guess you didn't read the article.

Yes, it was planned to have 70-80% common parts, but the article now say it is 20-30%. I didn't say it, the author says it, so I assume he must have some sources, if you want challenge, challenge him not me. And I don't think just by looking at external appearance alone you can say it must be have 70-80% common parts, because you should know this, different version of F-35 have very different requirements, so it is possible they may have very different internal structure design.

And yes, I said bad decision from everyone, I didn't say it, the article said it. And the example that you give me that they are now in production is just one of the example of bad decision. Because the jet is NOT ready, but yet they have started pre-production and hoping to later refit the ones being produced to the production finished model, and this would cost another 4-6 billion dollars. The article criticize this decision because it thinks this is not economical and this is done primarily out of political interest, because the sooner you produce, the sooner you can gain political supports, here is the quote

"rushing into production creates jobs and locks in political support, even if it allows programs to drift into trouble. Lockheed and its suppliers on the F-35 employ 35,000 workers, with some in nearly every Congressional district"

There is no doubt this jet is over budget and over time. Affordability was one of the key selling point of this plane, it was also one of the most important reason they decide to stop F-22 production, because it costs too much. However now it looks like F-35 will cost the same as a F-22.

Jack, most of the articles online have biases in a certain way. If you read Danger Room as your exclusive source, you will get a very negative view of every major defense program. If you read Lori Thompson, you will never think there is anything wrong with F-22, F-35 programs. There are obviously some issues, but the authors for these articles can have biases. Especially something like F-35, which gets political sometimes. That's not to say I like the way F-35 project was wrong and believe what Lockheed says either. There is a little truth in what everyone says.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Jack, most of the articles online have biases in a certain way. If you read Danger Room as your exclusive source, you will get a very negative view of every major defense program. If you read Lori Thompson, you will never think there is anything wrong with F-22, F-35 programs. There are obviously some issues, but the authors for these articles can have biases. Especially something like F-35, which gets political sometimes. That's not to say I like the way F-35 project was wrong and believe what Lockheed says either. There is a little truth in what everyone says.

Yes, that is a given, you don't need to tell me the media is biased. I see it everyday when it comes to reporting about China, however I am just pointing out some interesting things this article says. I am not the one that tries dispute almost everything the article says and it is wrong because I have "friends" in the industry that tells me something else to support my argument.

For example that 20-30% claim on structure commonality is a bold claim which needs seriously research to find out about the truth, and just because they looks similar does not support the argument that they are actually still 70-80% common.
 

jackliu

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

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On June 14 — Flag Day, of all days — the Government Accountability Office released a new oversight report on the F-35: Joint Strike Fighter: DOD Actions Needed to Further Enhance Restructuring and Address Affordability Risks. As usual, it contained some important information on growing costs and other problems. Also as usual, the press covered the new report, albeit a bit sparsely.

Fresh bad news on the F-35 has apparently become so routine that the fundamental problems in the program are plowed right over. One gets the impression, especially from GAO’s own title to its report, that we should expect the bad news, make some minor adjustments, and then move on. But a deeper dive into the report offers more profound, and disturbing, bottom line.

Notorious for burying its more important findings in the body of a report — I know; I worked there for nearly a decade – GAO understates its own results on acquisition cost growth in its one-page summary, which—sadly—is probably what most read to get what they think is the bottom line.

In that one-page summary, GAO states the F-35 program now projects “costs of $395.7 billion, an increase of $117.2 billion (42 percent) from the prior 2007 baseline.” The much more complete story is in this table from the report:



The summary uses the wrong baseline. As F-35 observers know and as the table shows, the cost documentation of the F-35 program started in 2001, not 2007. There has been a lot more cost growth than the “$117.2 billion (42 percent)” stated.

Set in 2001, the total acquisition cost of the F-35 was to be $233.0 billion. Compare that to the current estimate of $395.7 billion: cost growth has been $162.7 billion, or 70%: a lot more than what GAO stated in its summary.

However, the original $233 billion was supposed to buy 2,866 aircraft, not the 2,457 currently planned: making it $162 billion, or 70%, more for 409, or 14%, fewer aircraft. Adjusting for the shrinkage in the fleet, I calculate the cost growth for a fleet of 2,457 aircraft to be $190.8 billion, or 93%.

The cost of the program has almost doubled over the original baseline; it is not an increase of 42%.

Now, you know why DOD loves the rubber baseline. Reset the baseline, and you can pretend a catastrophe is half its actual size.

When assessing the other, even larger, “sustainability” cost implications of the F-35, GAO makes what I regard as a major methodological error.

On page 11, GAO cites DOD’s goal for the additional operating, logistics and support costs (“sustainment”) of the F-35. GAO focuses on the Air Force’s conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant and cites the new, March 2012 goal: $35,200 per flight hour, compared to $22,500 for the F-16. For years, DOD has cited the F-16 as the comparison aircraft for calculating costs to operate the F-35; now it is hoping the F-35 will be only 56% more than the cost to sustain the F-16.

GAO, quite properly, offers some skepticism that this goal can be met. It states that the CTOL version is not achieving its own criteria for meantime between failures, falling 30% short in 2011 (page 30); GAO reports that operational testers said “JSF is not on track to meet …operational suitability requirements” (page 17), and finally, GAO says the program is experiencing “excessive time for low observable repair and restoration, low reliability, and poor maintainability performance” (page 17). After all that, GAO politely calls the sustainability cost goal “a significant challenge” (page 31).

GAO is also correct to point out DOD management’s declaration that the current F-35 operating cost estimate, “$1.1 Trillion for all three variants based on a 30-year service life,” (page 10) is “unaffordable and simply unacceptable in the current fiscal environment” (page 11).

However, comparing the F-35 to the F-16 is a major error; associating those two aircraft is simply implausible. The two have very, very little in common. While they both are single engine aircraft that were planned to cost less than their contemporary higher cost complements (the F-15 and the F-22 respectively), the basic similarity stops there. The F-16 was conceived as a visual-range air to air fighter in the 1970s; it is a far, far more simple design, and it met its inherent affordability goal. The F-35A is a multi-role, multi-service design with stealth and many other highly complex (so-called “5th Generation”) attributes added in. It is a far, far more intricate aircraft and, as a result, failed to meet any affordability goal.

The F-35A has much more in common with its Lockheed stablemate, the F-22. While the F-22 may be more complex in some respects (twin-engine with divertible thrust; earlier generation stealth coatings); in other respects the F-35 is the more complex aircraft of the two (basic multi-role design woven into a STOVL-capable, multi-service airframe, even more complex communications, sensor and display systems, and much more software and complexity of system integration).

The F-35’s fundamentally complicated (“5th generation”) design makes its comparison to the F-16 inappropriate in any effort to understand F-35 operating costs. It should be compared to the F-22 where the similarities abound, for the most part. To better predict unknown F-35 costs, we should start with known F-22 operating costs.

The Air Force has been recording costs per flying hour for the F-22 since 2003. Six years after 2005 when the Air Force declared “initial operating capability” (IOC or the presumed ability to deploy and fight) for the F-22, the Air Force officially calculated an “ownership” cost per-flying-hour for the F-22 at $128,389 [best to download this with Google's Chrome browser]. That amount, however, is an outlier: the F-22 was grounded for more than four months that year, thereby distorting upwards the per-flying-hour cost.

There were no F-22 groundings or other significant flight limitations in 2010; the data for that year reflect known sustainment costs, per hour, after five years of deployability, thereby reflecting any learning curve in F-22 maintenance and support. The Air Force’s “ownership” cost per flying hour for the F-22 in 2010 was $63,929: half the 2011 cost.

It is that amount that should serve as the starting point for considering plausible F-35 operating costs. Optimistically speaking, a downward adjustment can be made for the F-35: Lockheed is attempting to reduce the cost and maintenance hours needed for the F-35’s version of stealth coatings, which comprises a large portion of F-22 operating costs, and an allowance should also be made for the single engine design of the F-35.

However, it is currently unknowable whether the lesser stealth cost goal will be achieved (as noted above, GAO found the F-35 is encountering problems), and it is also unknowable if the single engine design compensates, or not, for the added operating costs for the more complex communications, sensors, displays and software integration. While highly optimistic, perhaps a 20% improvement over the F-22 can be analytically useful.

Assuming that 20% cost per-flying-hour improvement over the F-22, the F-35 would cost $51,143 per hour to fly. Rather than an F-35A operating cost that is 56% more than the non-analogous F-16; it is more plausible, and analytically conservative, to calculate an operating cost that is 80% less than the highly comparable F-22—even if the improvement has not yet been demonstrated. The question should not be whether the F-35 can achieve 156% of the operating cost of the F-16; it should be whether it can achieve 80% of the operating costs of the F-22.

Posing the question in that manner, however, presents a serious dilemma: if the currently projected estimate of operating costs for the complete fleet of all three F-35 variants of $1.1 trillion is “unaffordable and simply unacceptable,” what is the meaning of a plausible—even if optimistic—operating cost that is well above that unsustainable $1.1 trillion?

During the nine years I worked in GAO’s methodology division, specializing in national-security evaluations, we took very seriously the selection of reasonable criteria for the purposes of comparing DOD systems. When DOD’s criteria were biased, we selected more appropriate ones. In this recent report, GAO failed to take that step.

We also used to joke in the cafeteria about the tepid titles senior management would give the reports we wrote. This new GAO report, Joint Strike Fighter: DOD Actions Needed to Further Enhance Restructuring and Address Affordability Risks is very unfortunate example: it does not simply understate the message the data convey; it misstates what the data say. The cost growth inherent in the F-35 program is huge and still growing: far more than to “enhance restructuring” and “address affordability” is needed.

The F-35 should now be officially called “unaffordable and simply unacceptable.” All that is lacking is a management that will accept — and act — on that finding.
 

Jeff Head

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

More good news for the program. Just keeps piling up:


[video=youtube;cQeBgdoiTa4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQeBgdoiTa4[/video]

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-- The Joint Strike Fighter began the integration phase of weapons testing Oct. 26 when the F-35A Conventional Takeoff and Landing (CTOL) aircraft successfully completed the first in-flight test with an AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile and release of that missile.


sdd_f35testb_171.jpg


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– Navy test pilot Lt. Christopher Tabert taxis BF-18, a production-level F-35B variant of the Lightning II, after arrival Nov. 8. BF-18 temporarily adds to the complement of F-35B and F-35C test aircraft at the F-35 Integrated Test Facility before heading to its ultimate destination of Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.


F-35-ZM136.jpg


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– The second United Kingdom Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II takes off from Naval Air Station Fort Worth Joint Reserve Base today for delivery to Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. Eglin’s eleventh U.S. Marine Corps F-35B ferried to the Emerald Coast with the U.K. jet. The aircraft, known as ZM136 and BF-16, departed at approximately 8:06 a.m. CDT with U.K. Royal Air Force Sqn. Ldr. Jim Schofield and Marine Corps Maj. Adam Levine at the controls, respectively.


f-35-01.jpg


The current official US Military/Lockheed releases of the aircraft indicate the high degree of commonality in the airframe and the structure. The embedded structure for all three aircraft is generlaly the same and are very near, and in some areas exceeding the general goal of a 70-80% structural commonality. It differs in the areas surrounding the "B" models vertical engine, and in the "C" models larger wing and horizontal tail. But on those "C" differences, the structure and skin is the same material and the embedded structure is the same, just more of it.

The overall bodies, noses, langing wells, tail, etc are the same. This commonality, which is in fact approaching to goals established by the prgram, will make the logoistics chain and maintenance of these aircraft in three different services very coommon when it comes to skin, shape, and structure.

The Navy and Air Force varieties use the same engines and basic control surfaces, the Marine version has a more powerful engine and a lift engine installed.

The internal electronics for the basic package for each aircraft is the same, with millions of lines of common code. There are differences in some areas to account for the different misisons of the respective aircraft. and clearly, based on the areas they are expected to operate, their treatment and painting will differ.

Unsubstantiated claims that these aricraft are only 20-30% structurally similar are belied by the photos of the aircraft themselves and these released and official photos of the aircraft from the military and manufacturer showing some of the structural buildup under the skin
 
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bd popeye

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

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"News" from disgruntled GAO, Lockheed etc employees is not IMO news...It's just sour grapes. Everyone that follows this aircraft knows the cost. Also IMO And military news from the NYT is hateful because it is their editorial policy to hate the military..so they will. They've been doing this for decades. They are entitled to their opinion.as we all are.
 

Jeff Head

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

"News" from disgruntled GAO, Lockheed etc employees is not IMO news...It's just sour grapes. Everyone that follows this aircraft knows the cost. Also IMO And military news from the NYT is hateful because it is their editorial policy to hate the military..so they will. They've been doing this for decades. They are entitled to their opinion.as we all are.
Precisely.

...and, when the new Squadron was opened up for the first active (non-training, non-maitenance) Marine Corps F-35B squadron this month, I did not know it, but there were three aircraft delivered to be the start of that squadron. I had thought there was only one.

In total, the Marine Corps has 16 total F-35Bs now, 13 of them at the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing's Marine Fighter/Attack Training Squadron 501 at Eglin AFB, Fla., exclusively supporting pilot and maintainence training.

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Lockheed Martin/US Marines said:
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- Three Lockheed Martin F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft were officially delivered to the U.S. Marine Corps during ceremonies at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Ariz., today. The three jets are assigned to Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 residing with the host Marine Aircraft Group 13.

“For more than 50 years, it has been our mission to support the Marine Corps mission, and we’re honored to deliver the first three F-35B STOVL aircraft to Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121,” said Bob Stevens, Lockheed Martin chairman and chief executive officer. “The F-35B is the world’s only 5th generation, supersonic, stealthy combat aircraft that can also hover, take off and land virtually anywhere Marines are in action. Through the hard work and dedication of the military and contractor team, the F-35B will define the future of Marine Corps aviation.”

Official welcoming ceremonies at Yuma marked the handover of the jets to the Marines. The delivery of the first three operational-coded 5th generation F-35B STOVL fighters marks the beginning of STOVL tactical operations at Air Station Yuma.
 

Jeff Head

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I'll buy that, in fact I'll buy two, probably don't need the folding mechanism for the wings either?
Well, yes, make it a single wing without the folding mechanism for carrier storage...also add the 30mm gun back internally.

But one thing you would lose in exchange for range an higher angle of attack, and slower stall speeds will be some turning and burning manueverability. The "C" cannot turn with the "A".
 

bd popeye

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I'm running late. Gotta go to work..

I thought the aircraft folded.. I found a photo..dunno if this is just a mock up or what..

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Jeff Head

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re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Here is some more news on more purchases of the F-35 by the Pentagon.

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Great find, Equation.

Interesting quotes by the officials running the program in this article, both from the government side and from Lockheed's side. No axes to grind and coming from both sides about the actual contract, quoting current pricing and future forecasts and plans.

I found this quote interesting and very good to see:

US Government/Lockheed said:
He said each aircraft in the fifth batch would cost less than 50 percent of the first lot, which was $220.8 million per plane. Those aircraft were delivered to Edwards Air Force Base in California in May 2011.

Loren Thompson, a defense consultant with close ties to Lockheed, said the reduction in labor costs was "sizeable" and the program was on track to reach a cost-per-aircraft in 2018 that would not exceed the price of an F-16 fighter today.

Current plans call for the cost of an F-35 to be around $66 million in 2018, excluding the engine, which is comparable to an F-16.

So, as I stated earlier, based on my own experience with such programs, costs come down over time, and they are already doing so, substantially with this program.

These aircraft are half of the cost of the intial batch. In 2018, after full prodcution starts up, they are projected to almost halve again bringing them in line with what a fully upgraded, new F-16 aircraft costs today.

By the time they get to 2018 only something like 400 aircraft out of a projected 3,000+ will have been delivered, so that will add up to huge savings over the coming years.
 
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