F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[HMS Astute]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Anyone who has written this article probably does not even know the ABCD of fighter flying and how the end game is achieved in air combat. I am pretty sure that the person who wrote this article has not even seen the backside of a fighter. My counter to the five points are:-

LO TECH- Any radar which can DETECT this ac can direct other ac to this ac from rear hemisphere to reach a point in space from where their passive sensors can provide them complete autonomous intercept profile. We all know the abilities of latest IIR sensor WVRAAMs.

On Board electronic defences- You can use a jammer only against a transmitter, what kind of jamming can one do against a passive sensor like IRST and interferometer?

Other On Board systems- Rafale has far superior sensor fusion than F-35 and even better EW suite. What bullshit is he writing here. The data link based communication is as old as donkey's years.

Limits of 4th Gen Jammers-Rafale and most other modern ac have AESA based jammers. Russians even have an AESA based seeker in R-77, what kind of jamming can F-35 do against that missile seeker or against the R-77 equipped with QWIP based IIR seeker. Russians have long used HF radars for early warning and even today they have VHF radars as integral part of most of their advanced long range SAM systems. what kind of jamming can F-35 do against them?

The simple truth is that F-35 is like a pregnant elephant. can't hide, can't fight, too bulky to move around, needs double the support and unlike a pregnant elephant, can't deliver.

Like all other articles about the F-35 and "legacy 4th gen fighters" written by an American, it is only aware of American planes. So when they say that the F-35 has unprecedented data fusion, they say that because they don't know the Gripen and Rafale exist, and their only point of comparison are the teen fighters.

Can someone please confirm me this criticism is absolutely BS, right? Or are you agree with that?

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Navy leaders haven’t spelled out precisely why they need the additional jamming aircraft, but it appears they plan to use their Growlers to support both existing strike aircraft and the F-35 when it becomes operational. That would be consistent with a longstanding Navy preference for using a mix of technologies and tactics in countering enemy defenses, rather than relying heavily on one feature such as stealth.

In other words, USN knows how to distinguish between marketing hype and reality on the ground (i.e. sea ) . They also have their own anti-stealth projects

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The most important feature of the plane enabling this capability is the integration of low-observable (stealth) technologies that make it virtually invisible to enemy sensors such as radar. Using the standard metric of square-meter reflectivity, the radar cross-section of a fourth-generation F/A-18 fighter in the forward aspect is two hundred times greater than that of the fifth-generation F-35.

Maybe in clean configuration and in X-band . What about L-band ? Most likely Super-Hornet and F-35 have much more similar RCS in L-band . Not to mention very hot F-35 engine, and increasing sophistication of IR sensors .

Radar cross-section is a complicated calculation that varies depending on the frequency of a radar and the aspect in which a plane is viewed, but with less reflectivity than a bird from most directions, the F-35 will make it impossible for defenders to complete all the steps in a “kill-chain” necessary for successful interception. .

Yes it is very complicated, but even layman would understand that F-35 is not that stealthy in rear-hemisphere , even for usual X-band radars .

Even if long-wavelength radars can occasionally sense the plane’s presence, the later steps in the sequence such as locking on target are beyond the capacity of current radars unless defenders are exceedingly lucky.

Nope. Author of the article does not understand guidance methods of various SAMs and AAMs . Long-wavelength radars usually don't have enough resolution for firing solution (although that could change with new generations of radar) . But they would give you "kill box" inside of which your X-band radar or IR sensors could search for target, especially if they get close (i.e if they are mounted on the missile) . Even for older radars that box is fairly narrow (cube with side length of 0.5 km )

Built by BAE Systems under extremely secretive conditions, the F-35′s electronic defenses integrate a multifunction, electronically-steered radar, other sensors distributed around the airframe, diverse countermeasures, and a core processor that can perform over a trillion operations per second. These various components enable the on-board system to detect, collect, locate and identify all hostile emitters, tailoring a response that negates defender capabilities without diminishing the F-35′s stealth.

Again lack of understanding . If you want to jam radar, you need to emit . And if you want to jam long-wavelength radar , you would need long-wavelength emitter that F-35 does not posses in clean configuration . Theoretically, F-35 could jam SAMs and AAMs with X-band sensors using DRFM, but that could be achieved by any other aircraft and lot will depend on ECCM of the missile . On the other hand, modern IR guided missiles with focal plane arrays are much more difficult to jam

When other friendly aircraft such as radar planes are in positions suitable for supplementing this information the F-35 has secure datalinks for passing information back and forth

Secure, until someone hacks into them Already happened few times with UAVs .

Because it does not have an integrated stealth design, it cannot accompany F-35s deep into contested airspace without running a major risk of interception.

When you turn on your jammers, your aircraft will be very, very stealthy

For instance, Chinese radars typically would not be able to track carrier-based F-35 fighters operating around Taiwan due to their combination of low observables and on-board electronic-warfare capabilities

Want to bet on that ?

It is not easy to discuss these topics in a public setting because the capabilities of the F-35 and the war plans that it would help execute are largely secret. You can’t learn much about the electronic-warfare suite on the F-35, or the functional limitations of its Northrop Grumman radar, or the network-attack techniques built into its on-board software, unless you have a raft of security clearances.

Usual stuff - you are buying cat in the bag, we cannot show you how great it is because it is classified

 

[Zool]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Can someone please confirm me this criticism is absolutely BS, right? Or are you agree with that?

From where are you getting this quote? It would be helpful to understand which article or person this is coming from to get a little context. I went back a few pages in the thread and don't see this anywhere. Thanks.

 

[wtlh]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Can someone please confirm me this criticism is absolutely BS, right? Or are you agree with that?

Well, for one thing, sensor fusion and advanced avionics are not limited to 5th gen airframes. It is true that they already existed in 4th gen airframes and can certainly be retro-fitted into them.

And the stated core processing powers aren't that new (or even impressive) either. I would imagine the processor will mostly be made up by GPUs to explain the stated teraflop processing power (trillion floating point calculations per second) with the given physical size, and given the type of data processing involved (Fourier transforming the radar signal data etc). But teraflop GPU based multi-core processing units are already quite common even in civilian market, for example the latest Nvidia graphics cards for personal computers are already reaching over 3 teraflops in computational power.

One of the important factors of countries like UK are replacing their 4th gen fighters is that these are already due to be replaced, with the likes of Tornados going to literally fell apart in a number of years time. And as with all countries with enough defence spending, since you are replacing the airframes you might as well upgrade to a more modern version in the process. Yes, they can still get the updated 4th gen airframes, but psychology plays a big part: replacing old 4th gen frames with newer ones of the same generation, even though with much upgraded internals will always feel like a cheap compromise. There is no comparison between getting a brand new computer and stripping the internals of your old computer and fit it with all the new hard disks, ram etc, even if it is enough for your needs and could save you $$$. And this is public money we are talking about, and that spending more leads to more funding in the future, and spending less leads to automatic funding cuts.

And since UK has basically sold off most of its industrial capabilities, there isn't really much choices available, and being able to operate along side the Americans, and being completely integrated to the US defence systems is considered a high priority. This applies to many of the states buying the F35. These states are highly reliant on the overall US defence network for their own military to function, and in this regard they have really not much choices.

The French aren't joining the party because they have a very much functional and self-sufficient defence industry in place.

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

And since UK has basically sold off most of its industrial capabilities, there isn't really much choices available.

The French aren't joining the party because they have a very much functional and self-sufficient defence industry in place.

Well, Rolls-Royce is still the world's largest aero engines manufacturer and BAE Systems is the 2nd or 3rd largest defence contractor on earth.

 

[wtlh]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Well, Rolls-Royce is still the world's largest aero engines manufacturer and BAE Systems is the 2nd or 3rd largest defence contractor on earth.

Yes, but they are moving more and more towards subcomponents rather than the complete packages.

TBH, the trend looks like the Typhoon, which is only partially built in the UK BTW, may be the last home-grown fighter for a very long time. The Harrier and Tornados are probably the last truly indigenous UK planes. There aren't even a new fighter programme considered in the UK. Even Japan and Korea have their own advanced fighter programmes. This is really happening everywhere---Challenger production is to cease, and there were talks of purchasing the Leopard 2 in the future instead. Similar story in the helicopters, UK produced models are retiring to American replacements, etc etc. Basically outsourcing everything.

The trend really looks like that UK will become fully absorbed into the American military-industrual complex not that far down the future, with BAE and RR becoming major subcontractors to the likes of LM and Boeing, with the latter providing the complete packages to the UK government. Will the UK even have a fighter aircraft production line in the future? And once the expertise in the form of experienced work force are gone, it will take a generation's time to rebuild it.

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

There aren't even a new fighter programme considered in the UK.

Because Typhoon is still one of the most capable and advanced fighter jets available on the market today and it will still remain as the backbone of RAF until 2030. Also the UK government is now shifting its focus from manned aircraft to unmanned aircraft and there have been many proposals for new drones such as Taranis stealth UCAV (designed to fly intercontinental missions, carry variety of precision smart bombs, various missiles and perform air to air and air to ground tasks, it is capable identifying and selecting its own targets whilst flying stealthy), there are others like Novel Air Concept, Telemos, Scavenger, Mantis (armed with UK built Pavewave IV laser guided smart bombs and Brimstone forget and fire missiles), Demon, Herti etc.which are intended to replace the current manned aircraft in the future. Government is now investing more and more in this kind of programmes, research and development etc.

Challenger production is to cease, and there were talks of purchasing the Leopard 2 in the future instead.

Source? Have you also seen the stealth tank with invisibility cloak designed by BAE Systems for British Army?

TBH, the trend looks like the Typhoon, which is only partially built in the UK BTW

Do you realise that Typhoon is developed from British Aerospace EAP?

Well, I don't want to ruin this thread anymore, you can go read its history by yourself.

Sorry for being verbose.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

In other words, USN knows how to distinguish between marketing hype and reality on the ground (i.e. sea ) . They also have their own anti-stealth projects

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Maybe in clean configuration and in X-band . What about L-band ? Most likely Super-Hornet and F-35 have much more similar RCS in L-band . Not to mention very hot F-35 engine, and increasing sophistication of IR sensors .



Yes it is very complicated, but even layman would understand that F-35 is not that stealthy in rear-hemisphere , even for usual X-band radars .



Nope. Author of the article does not understand guidance methods of various SAMs and AAMs . Long-wavelength radars usually don't have enough resolution for firing solution (although that could change with new generations of radar) . But they would give you "kill box" inside of which your X-band radar or IR sensors could search for target, especially if they get close (i.e if they are mounted on the missile) . Even for older radars that box is fairly narrow (cube with side length of 0.5 km )



Again lack of understanding . If you want to jam radar, you need to emit . And if you want to jam long-wavelength radar , you would need long-wavelength emitter that F-35 does not posses in clean configuration . Theoretically, F-35 could jam SAMs and AAMs with X-band sensors using DRFM, but that could be achieved by any other aircraft and lot will depend on ECCM of the missile . On the other hand, modern IR guided missiles with focal plane arrays are much more difficult to jam



Secure, until someone hacks into them Already happened few times with UAVs .




When you turn on your jammers, your aircraft will be very, very stealthy



Want to bet on that ?




Usual stuff - you are buying cat in the bag, we cannot show you how great it is because it is classified

Chief ThunderCloud, bringing sunshine and good cheer to SDF, Merry Christmas brother!

 

[Jura The idiot]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Can someone please confirm me this criticism is absolutely BS, right? Or are you agree with that?

wait, what's the source of this criticism, HMS Astute? a moment ago I used google to search for chunks of the text (in apostrophes) you quoted, obtained just this post (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/wor...trike-fighter-thread-134-5796.html#post319519) ... does it come from some other forum maybe, not captured by google? or translation?

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Usual stuff - you are buying cat in the bag, we cannot show you how great it is because it is classified

What do you expect, Thunder, the US and other militaries to reveal all details and secrets of these projects onto the internet? and to forums like SD?

Surely it is obvious that such an expectation...or anything close to it...is completely unrealistic.

And yet the US is more open and forthcoming than almost anywhere else.

The facts are that the best technical and military minds in the west...and perhaps in the world...are working to make the F-35 a preeminent 5th generation stealth strike fighter. Not an air superiority fighter, although it is expected to hold it own.

All of the self-proclaimed internet "experts" may think they know better than these people...but they do not. And they are simply not going to get to know all of the capabilities and put to rest all of the nay saying and all of the detractors prognostications.

If they were really THAT good, they would most likely already be working on such programs and constrained from revealing very much at all.

And that is fine. It is as it should be.

As I have said, the F-35 is going to prove itself through history and actual events...not though revealing the pearls to all the world upfront. The OPFOR is going to have to be left guessing on a lot of this...which is common practice for militaries all over the world and for obvious reasons.