F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I mean the F-35 could more effectively jam radar systems if it was tracked by one compared to a 4th gen fighter. Not meaning that the F-35 would need to take over the role of a Growler. Jamming and stealth don't exclude each other, but complement each other.

Effectiveness of jamming depends on avionics - Growler (4th or 4.5 gen aircraft) is certainly more effective in jamming then let's say F-22. Also, when you start jamming you are basically emitting - not very stealthy thing to do.

Those "official" specs are put into context by that fighter pilot. Sure the F-16 can reach mach 2.0, but under what circumstances and for how long?

I didn't want to go that way, but same question could be asked about F-35 and supposed max speed of 1.6 Mach . There are people claiming that we basically have subsonic aircraft capable of only short supersonic dashes.

Reading between those lines, one can simply deduce the fact that a clean f-16 would outaccelerate, outmaneuver the JSF and has a higher top speed.

Well... I don't know about accelerating , but rest ....

It's also pretty interesting how you on the one hand cite LM official stats of the F-16 and use it as an argument for your anti-JSF discussion. Yet, you dismiss all statements made on behalf of LM/ the military by those who fly/flew the F-16, F-18, Harriers, Eurofighters and the JSF.

There is a tremendous pressure on pilots not to tell truth about F-35 . Careers are at stake. But, between the lines you find bits of truth (Kloos interview for example)

Maybe they do, but don't forget not everyone is allowed to buy the F-35 yet even if they got the money. The US don't want a second Iran episode.

Well , actually ...

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Let me give you another example. Israel complained to the US about Saudi-Arabia getting more (advanced) F-15s. This complaining stopped when the US promised Israel they could get the F-35. This must be a sign that Israel too views the F-35 as better than anything that's 4.5 gen. The Israeli's are top notch in the EW department (Operation Orchard should be an example of this). They too can upgrade their F-15s and F-16s with top notch EW equipment to defeat SAM threats and fighter threats, but they rather get the F-35.

Israelis are getting their aircraft basically for free. More they complain, more they get . F-15's are no longer in production, so Israelis want F-35 and they were even pushing for F-22. Other countries are paying from their own pocket , therefore price is a factor for them .

First it depends on the model of the aircraft. The F-15s and F-16s aren't designed to house so much electronics/ displays and therefore you can't just plug new hardware in. After all these years, the room for upgrades is really limited. Furthermore, in the case of the F-15Cs and also partly of the F-16Cs up to block 52 or so, if you don't have the interface there to take advantage of the sensors, you won't gain the same level of capability.

Both F-15s and F-16s have AESA upgrades for them. F-35 has only one large MFD and no HUD, so no problem from this side also .

Building new F-15s etc. with a redesigned cockpit and redesigned internal structure to create space for all the new hardware willl bring more costs that'll increase the price of these fighters. It may be even so that some additional flight testing need to be done because the redesign led to a change of the center of gravity.

Actually ...

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Stealth means a reduced visibilty on radar for certain frequencies/ distances. It's not how the media present it, as a Romulan cloaking device. We can agree on that, but the fact that almost everything that is now designed to fly (cruise missiles, UAVs, aircrafts etc.) have some degree of stealth incorporated reflects on the benefits of reduced radar visibility.

It all boils down to would you sacrifice other attributes of aircraft for stealth .

Training excersises revealed that even F-15s could be easily defeated by lower tier fighters like the Mig-21 in WVR, because during these dogfights where a lot of planes are flying, you'd lose track of the entire picture so some could sneak in and kill you.

Training exercises (India) showed that upgraded Mig-21 Bison could jam F-15s radar , get close and score a kill . And Mig-21 is actually less maneuverable then F-15 . Now consider Mig-29 vs F-35 (Mig-29 would certainly out-turn F-35)

 

[Jura The idiot]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

F-35s are badly needed anyway:

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[Jura The idiot]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

On Bean Counters:

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[Bernard]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

On Bean Counters:

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I was reading the comments. And is it in the death spiral to cancelation?

 

[Jura The idiot]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I was reading the comments. And is it in the death spiral to cancelation?

Do you mean this:

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?

 

[Scyth]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Effectiveness of jamming depends on avionics - Growler (4th or 4.5 gen aircraft) is certainly more effective in jamming then let's say F-22. Also, when you start jamming you are basically emitting - not very stealthy thing to do.

Tracking a stealthy airframe is hard enough, add a jammer (whether onboard or stand-off) will make it easier for a stealthy airframe to break the track compared to non-stealthy airframes. That's my point.

I didn't want to go that way, but same question could be asked about F-35 and supposed max speed of 1.6 Mach . There are people claiming that we basically have subsonic aircraft capable of only short supersonic dashes.

Past generation fighters are also only capable of short supersonic dashes. I'm not sure how often air-to-air and air-to-ground combat had taken place at sustained supersonic speeds. The second question would be, does supersonic speed matter that much if you're stealthy and pursuing a ground target? Basically the JSF is a super-improved F-117 with regards to the role it'll mainly perform (A2G bombing) with the added benefit of being capable of defending itself much much better (speed, maneuverability and weapons) and thus relying less on stealth.

Well... I don't know about accelerating , but rest ....

These statements were made by those pilots you quoted so we agree on that (clean airframe though).

There is a tremendous pressure on pilots not to tell truth about F-35 . Careers are at stake. But, between the lines you find bits of truth (Kloos interview for example)

Well, that's a bit too easy. First one can also argue that some of the F-35 performance enveloppe has not been completely tested yet so pilots can't go to the max (like what the Dutch testpilot said). Second, like with the F-22, some performance measures are classified and are either played down due to security reasons or due to political reasons (even though the F-22 production line has been cut, the USAF still wants funds to upgrade their Raptors.)

Well , actually ...

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That news article is consistent with what I've claimed:
1) Israel wants and gets military edge with the purchase of the F-35 compared to other nations that are getting advanced F-15s.
2) Even though the Gulf states are willing and have the funds to buy the F-35, the US needs to follow the policies to ensure Israel maintains their military edge. The US also needs to follow the policies to make sure the security of the US itself is not endangered by 1) a similar occurance of what happened in Iran and/ or 2) letting others getting hands on state-of-the-art equipment via espionage.

Israelis are getting their aircraft basically for free. More they complain, more they get . F-15's are no longer in production, so Israelis want F-35 and they were even pushing for F-22. Other countries are paying from their own pocket , therefore price is a factor for them .

They complained about advanced equipment going to Saudi-Arabia, which had stopped when they got the F-35. If they didn't view the F-35 as sufficient, they wouldn't have stopped complaining.

And also, the F-15 is still in production:

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Both F-15s and F-16s have AESA upgrades for them. F-35 has only one large MFD and no HUD, so no problem from this side also .

Even if you got space to upgrade them, you'll need to make sure the airframe is worthwile and you got the interface there. Existing F-15Cs as well as F-16Cs are showing sings of age.

Actually ...

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The projected cost of that upgraded F-15 was 100 million, the latest projected F-35A cost is 98 million. For that you at least get equal or better avionics + better maneuverbility at medium/ low altitudes.

It all boils down to would you sacrifice other attributes of aircraft for stealth .

Other attributes were not sacrificed for stealth, rather they were not required to achieve the same high standard as the F-22.

Training exercises (India) showed that upgraded Mig-21 Bison could jam F-15s radar , get close and score a kill . And Mig-21 is actually less maneuverable then F-15 . Now consider Mig-29 vs F-35 (Mig-29 would certainly out-turn F-35)

1) That may only apply to old gen radar, not the AESA radar.
2) It proves again that you absolutely don't want to get in close because then anything can happen (a less maneuverable opponent beating a much more maneuverable one. Following this, it could also mean a F-35 beating the F-22 ;-)).
3) F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18s have beaten the Mig-29 in simulations and in real combat both in WVR and BVR. Even though the Mig-29 is supposed to be more maneuverable. As a matter of a fact, the Mig-29 has a quite poor kill-ratio even though the claimed maneuverability would suggest otherwise.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Tracking a stealthy airframe is hard enough, add a jammer (whether onboard or stand-off) will make it easier for a stealthy airframe to break the track compared to non-stealthy airframes. That's my point.
...

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(dated Apr 07, 2014 -- am sorry if it's been posted before)

 

[Scyth]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

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(dated Apr 07, 2014 -- am sorry if it's been posted before)

They complement each other...

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[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Tracking a stealthy airframe is hard enough, add a jammer (whether onboard or stand-off) will make it easier for a stealthy airframe to break the track compared to non-stealthy airframes. That's my point.

Not really. Using stealth is like being dressed in black, trying to sneak up on someone in the dark. Using jammers is like pointing flashlight in someones face trying to blind him . Mutually exclusive in most cases .

Past generation fighters are also only capable of short supersonic dashes. I'm not sure how often air-to-air and air-to-ground combat had taken place at sustained supersonic speeds. The second question would be, does supersonic speed matter that much if you're stealthy and pursuing a ground target? Basically the JSF is a super-improved F-117 with regards to the role it'll mainly perform (A2G bombing) with the added benefit of being capable of defending itself much much better (speed, maneuverability and weapons) and thus relying less on stealth.

Well, F-117 was not used for air combat, F-35 will . F-35 is Joint Strike Fighter , but unfortunately it will be used in air to air role, especially in some smaller airforces . As for usefulness of supersonic speeds in air combat, volumes has been written about it (yes, it is useful if you know what to do ) .

1) Israel wants and gets military edge with the purchase of the F-35 compared to other nations that are getting advanced F-15s.
2) Even though the Gulf states are willing and have the funds to buy the F-35, the US needs to follow the policies to ensure Israel maintains their military edge. The US also needs to follow the policies to make sure the security of the US itself is not endangered by 1) a similar occurance of what happened in Iran and/ or 2) letting others getting hands on state-of-the-art equipment via espionage.

Israel wants new planes, same as Gulf states . No new F-15s are being produced (Silent Eagle unfortunately getting slashed) . Also , F-15E (F-15I) is somewhat inferior to F-35A in strike role, I admit that . So what could Israelis do ? Lobby for restart of F-15 production or get some F-35s for free? On the other side, Gulf states are paying for their equipment, so they have other options (Typhoon, Rafale etc .. )

They complained about advanced equipment going to Saudi-Arabia, which had stopped when they got the F-35. If they didn't view the F-35 as sufficient, they wouldn't have stopped complaining.

They complained to get best US has to offer for free in that time. Compared to F-16s and F-15s with mechanically steered radars, F-35 is somewhat better, I admit that . Had US upgraded F-16s and F-15s with AESA and some other things from F-35 program, maybe they would want that .

And also, the F-15 is still in production:

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They are producing parts and upgrade kits, not new airframes .

The projected cost of that upgraded F-15 was 100 million, the latest projected F-35A cost is 98 million. For that you at least get equal or better avionics + better maneuverbility at medium/ low altitudes.

Projected cost of F-35 is a joke, especially after this unplanned engine changes . US was paying over $120 million per plane in 2013 , without engines and spares .

Other attributes were not sacrificed for stealth, rather they were not required to achieve the same high standard as the F-22.

Speed, maneuverability ...

1) That may only apply to old gen radar, not the AESA radar.
2) It proves again that you absolutely don't want to get in close because then anything can happen (a less maneuverable opponent beating a much more maneuverable one. Following this, it could also mean a F-35 beating the F-22 ;-)).
3) F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18s have beaten the Mig-29 in simulations and in real combat both in WVR and BVR. Even though the Mig-29 is supposed to be more maneuverable. As a matter of a fact, the Mig-29 has a quite poor kill-ratio even though the claimed maneuverability would suggest otherwise.

Jammers have been developed to confuse AESA radars too, it is ongoing battle . Also, Mig-21 were downed by Mirage III or F-4s , yet they managed to score simulated kills on F-15s . Therefore, Mig-29s that lost from F-16s could potentially defeat F-35 with right avionics .

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Projected cost of F-35 is a joke, especially after this unplanned engine changes . US was paying over $120 million per plane in 2013 , without engines and spares .

No, thunder, the pricing projections are not a joke. Neither could they be. They are constrianed by significant US law to give accurate, documented portrayals of their costing.

They are not there now, but they will get there. The price has been steadliy dropping and will continue to do so.

In the end, this aircraft will be this generations F-16 for the western nations. A stealthy, 5th generation strike fighter that will have amazing capabilities, despite some of its limitations.

All of these nations who are lining up to buy the aircraft are not wrong, and they are not all doing it simply to curry favor with, or make political ovetures to the US. Any "explanation," that this is the reason is an abject insult to the professionalism of a lot of nations and their military personnel. Having worked with quite a few of those nations, I can tell you personally that they are not motivated by such reasoning. They are principally decidated to the defense and soveriegnty of their nations and to working with allies as much as they can to help ensure those things.

Anyhow, as with all things, time will tell.