F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[Scyth]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Tactically admitting something we already knew . As I said before, F-35 will have its hands full against any 4th gen fighter with light air-to-air combat load in close combat (F-16, Mig-29, Mirage-2000 etc ... )

Success of F-35 will depend on progress of various anti-stealth radars now being developed all over the world. In a worst case scenario it could be obsolete even before it becomes fully operational.

Don't write the F-35 off just yet. I think it'll have some tricks up its sleeve. First of all, DAS is claimed to be able to track every fighter within 10 miles regardless of its presence. Older fighters at best may have an IRST looking upfront. For the other 3xx degrees, pilots need to count on their own eyes. Secondly, the JSF is claimed to have similar or better kinematics than a F-16/ F-18. The former being able to outmaneuver the Eurofighter at low altitude (<10k feet). The F-35 was able to fly supersonic for 150 miles which I think is more impressive than the Typhoon because the JSF would be carrying 2 aams + 2 bombs or 4 aams (or maybe even six in the future). The Eurofighter was only able to supercruise if they were carrying "a light load", which I guess would mean 4 aams semi-burried into the airframe with maybe 2 or 4 sraams, but no external tanks. Finally, of course stealth. Anti-stealth radars are still under development, and I think it'll be some time before they are really effective and if so, the JSF and other stealth platforms can always resort to jamming techniques, which should be more effective compared to non-stealthy airframes. Also, other EW assets would be there to provide escort/stand-off jamming or radar destruction which would limit the effectiveness of these radars.

Unfortunately(?), the F-35 is not a F-22 in kinematics, but it should be able to handle past, present and near future threats.

It is therefore why everyone in the world would like to get their hands on the F-35 or develop their own stealth fighter(bomber) instead of buying the "combat proven" Eurofighters, F-15s, F-16s etc.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I guess many of you follow the Aviation Week, but I'll post anyway:

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[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Tactically admitting something we already knew . As I said before, F-35 will have its hands full against any 4th gen fighter with light air-to-air combat load in close combat (F-16, Mig-29, Mirage-2000 etc ... )

Success of F-35 will depend on progress of various anti-stealth radars now being developed all over the world. In a worst case scenario it could be obsolete even before it becomes fully operational.

I am going to give you a C on this post Chief, the article is a good and thoughtful article about how the F-35B, the B model will integrate with the Typhoon. The article points out that the B has no internal gun, and that from an A2A standpoint it is NOT an F-22, which as you point out, we already knew.... Now the Air Force A model does have an internal gun, and it is "optimized" to meet an A2A threat, being cleared to 9Gs, and it will most certainly be a better Fighter.

The article does point out that the Typhoon, while not stealthy does have very superior performance at altitude, and how to tactically integrate that platform with the F-35B, to come up with a winning combination... The article does point out the superiority of the F-22 to anything else, even the Typhoon, and I would imagine that the T-50 and the J-20 will likely be somewhere in the middle of that mix. The F-35 will likely be superior in Sensor Fusion, and overall situational awareness, and the high off bore sight shooting with the HMS will be an equalizer...

It is important to realize the conclusions the author reached are specifically related to the B, and it is also important to realize that the F-35 was designed as an A2G platform, that could defend itself in a hostile A2A environment, it was never designed to be the F-22.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Don't write the F-35 off just yet. I think it'll have some tricks up its sleeve. First of all, DAS is claimed to be able to track every fighter within 10 miles regardless of its presence. Older fighters at best may have an IRST looking upfront. For the other 3xx degrees, pilots need to count on their own eyes. Secondly, the JSF is claimed to have similar or better kinematics than a F-16/ F-18. The former being able to outmaneuver the Eurofighter at low altitude (<10k feet). The F-35 was able to fly supersonic for 150 miles which I think is more impressive than the Typhoon because the JSF would be carrying 2 aams + 2 bombs or 4 aams (or maybe even six in the future). The Eurofighter was only able to supercruise if they were carrying "a light load", which I guess would mean 4 aams semi-burried into the airframe with maybe 2 or 4 sraams, but no external tanks. Finally, of course stealth. Anti-stealth radars are still under development, and I think it'll be some time before they are really effective and if so, the JSF and other stealth platforms can always resort to jamming techniques, which should be more effective compared to non-stealthy airframes. Also, other EW assets would be there to provide escort/stand-off jamming or radar destruction which would limit the effectiveness of these radars.

Unfortunately(?), the F-35 is not a F-22 in kinematics, but it should be able to handle past, present and near future threats.

It is therefore why everyone in the world would like to get their hands on the F-35 or develop their own stealth fighter(bomber) instead of buying the "combat proven" Eurofighters, F-15s, F-16s etc.

F-35 DAS AN/AAQ-37 is not a Wunderwaffe . These are simply regular IRST sensors placed around fuselage. I would expect similar upgrade for many 4th gen and 4.5th gen fighters currently in service. Also, in WVR combat fighters usually merge head on, and after that pilots use regular Mk1 eyeballs . Also, I don't buy that F-35 has better kinematics then F-16 with light load. We already had article about that in this forum, implicitly admitting that :

A combat-configured F-16 is encumbered with weapons, external fuel tanks, and electronic countermeasures pods that sap the jet's performance. "You put all that on, I'll take the F-35 as far as handling characteristic and performance, that's not to mention the tactical capabilities and advancements in stealth," he says. "It's of course way beyond what the F-16 has currently."

The F-35's acceleration is "very comparable" to a Block 50 F-16. "Again, if you cleaned off an F-16 and wanted to turn and maintain Gs and [turn] rates, then I think a clean F-16 would certainly outperform a loaded F-35," Kloos says. "But if you compared them at combat loadings, the F-35 I think would probably outperform it."

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If and when F-35 meets enemy fighters over hostile air space, they would not carry tons of fuel and bombs with them .

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I am going to give you a C on this post Chief, the article is a good and thoughtful article about how the F-35B, the B model will integrate with the Typhoon. The article points out that the B has no internal gun, and that from an A2A standpoint it is NOT an F-22, which as you point out, we already knew.... Now the Air Force A model does have an internal gun, and it is "optimized" to meet an A2A threat, being cleared to 9Gs, and it will most certainly be a better Fighter.

The article does point out that the Typhoon, while not stealthy does have very superior performance at altitude, and how to tactically integrate that platform with the F-35B, to come up with a winning combination... The article does point out the superiority of the F-22 to anything else, even the Typhoon, and I would imagine that the T-50 and the J-20 will likely be somewhere in the middle of that mix. The F-35 will likely be superior in Sensor Fusion, and overall situational awareness, and the high off bore sight shooting with the HMS will be an equalizer...

It is important to realize the conclusions the author reached are specifically related to the B, and it is also important to realize that the F-35 was designed as an A2G platform, that could defend itself in a hostile A2A environment, it was never designed to be the F-22.

Article suggest using F-35 as mini-AWACS in A2A . It also suggest F-35 inferiority not only to F-22 but also to Typhoon (4.5 gen fighter) . As for F-35A vs F-35B capabilities, A would have somewhat better T/W but on the other hand B has thrust vectoring, therefore I don#t think there would be much difference . As for high off bore shooting, it is not panacea, many nations are developing (or have developed) missiles with such capability. Again, fighter with better maneuverability will win.

I would agree that F-35 was not designed to be a fighter (it's a strike aircraft with secondary A2A capability) . But, it will be sold as such, and used as such. Britain plans to use them to supplement Typhoons and that is fine, but many other countries will deploy them as air superiority fighters which they are not . And that could lead to problems.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Article suggest using F-35 as mini-AWACS in A2A . It also suggest F-35 inferiority not only to F-22 but also to Typhoon (4.5 gen fighter) . As for F-35A vs F-35B capabilities, A would have somewhat better T/W but on the other hand B has thrust vectoring, therefore I don#t think there would be much difference . As for high off bore shooting, it is not panacea, many nations are developing (or have developed) missiles with such capability. Again, fighter with better maneuverability will win.

I would agree that F-35 was not designed to be a fighter (it's a strike aircraft with secondary A2A capability) . But, it will be sold as such, and used as such. Britain plans to use them to supplement Typhoons and that is fine, but many other countries will deploy them as air superiority fighters which they are not . And that could lead to problems.

A Typhoon is a very agile aircraft at altitude, prolly close to an F-22, or a PAK-FA, or J-20, but definitely will outturn the F-35, and that is why the Typhoon and the F-35B will be deployed as a team, just as the F-22 and F-35 will be deployed as a team, and they will be very good together. An F-35 is also rated very high in L/O, and will be difficult to target at BVR, honestly it will be more L/O than anything besides an F-22 and a B-2,,,, including the J-20 and PAK-FA, and that my friend is an ace in the hole according to Col Kloos and anyone else who really knows what they are talking about and are being "honest". Now if you find yourself up close with any adversary aircraft, then you will have your work cut out for you, but I believe that short of a Raptor, you will still win, and I have no proof, just a gut feel....

 

[Scyth]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

F-35 DAS AN/AAQ-37 is not a Wunderwaffe . These are simply regular IRST sensors placed around fuselage. I would expect similar upgrade for many 4th gen and 4.5th gen fighters currently in service. Also, in WVR combat fighters usually merge head on, and after that pilots use regular Mk1 eyeballs .

In order to spot an enemy aircraft, you'll need to know it's there and where to look. That's where the DAS combined with HMD is useful. Pilots of previous generations of fighters still need to use their own eyeballs and make sure they don't lose the target out of sight. The F-16 is a small jet, the F-35 is only a bit bigger. An F-16 pilot will need to work hard to keep track of the JSF visually, while the F-35 has DAS to back him/ her up.

Also, I don't buy that F-35 has better kinematics then F-16 with light load. We already had article about that in this forum, implicitly admitting that :

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If and when F-35 meets enemy fighters over hostile air space, they would not carry tons of fuel and bombs with them .

Well it already stated a cleaned off f-16 vs. a loaded f-35. A clean F-16 would only have an internal gun. When you put missiles on, it's getting dirty with extra drag already. In your source it is also mentioned: The F-16, Kloos says, is a very capable aircraft in a within visual range engagement--especially in the lightly loaded air-to-air configuration used during training sorties at home station. "It's really good at performing in that kind of configuration," Kloos says. "But that's not a configuration that I've ever--I've been in a lot of different deployments--and those are the configurations I've never been in with weapons onboard."

If a flight of F-35s meet fighters over badguy land, they'll have the upper hand to decide whether to engage or not due to stealth + escort jamming. If they decide to engage, they'll have the luxury to choose the best position for a shot that'll maximize the chance of a kill.

Stripped down Eurofighers beat the F-22s in a WVR dogfight, but when you go to combat, you won't be stripped down. You'll want to have as many armament, fuel, jamming pods etc. on board to complete your mission.

When you compare a cleaned off / stripped down fighter vs. a combat configured fighter, you are essentially comparing a naked soldier with a knife vs. a soldier with his equipment, guns and ammo. The naked one may run faster, a bit more athletic, can crawl into spaces that a very small etc., but he'll also be less lethal and more likely to get killed.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Stripped down Eurofighers beat the F-22s in a WVR dogfight, but when you go to combat, you won't be stripped down.

That's somebody's "wet-dream", I don't buy that, and yes I heard both sides of the story, that supposedly happened after "no joy" had been called and was a HMS off bore sight shot as I recall. In any respect, the F-22 boys cried foul, and I for one believe them, the Euro-fighter is very good, and at low and medium altitude, it well may turn with the Raptor, 50,000 ft and the Raptor will still sustain 6Gs, the Eurofighter, no way!

 

[Scyth]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

That's somebody's "wet-dream", I don't buy that, and yes I heard both sides of the story, that supposedly happened after "no joy" had been called and was a HMS off bore sight shot as I recall. In any respect, the F-22 boys cried foul, and I for one believe them, the Euro-fighter is very good, and at low and medium altitude, it well may turn with the Raptor, 50,000 ft and the Raptor will still maintain, 6Gs the Eurofighter, no way!

Well, I guess we can both agree on the fact that we don't have full knowledge (yet) about the ROE's etc. of those engagements so everything is multi-interpretable/debatable. I believe that a stripped down Eurofighter can match the F-22 in some areas and beat it. The only thing that may disqualify it is the when they stop the fight and the Typhoon driver continues. What I've read was that a German commander had to pay a lot of whisky for achieving good results against the Raptor. I can't believe that all those good results were achieved by cheating.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

That's somebody's "wet-dream", I don't buy that, and yes I heard both sides of the story, that supposedly happened after "no joy" had been called and was a HMS off bore sight shot as I recall. In any respect, the F-22 boys cried foul, and I for one believe them, the Euro-fighter is very good, and at low and medium altitude, it well may turn with the Raptor, 50,000 ft and the Raptor will still maintain, 6Gs the Eurofighter, no way!

Generally, in training exercises with the F-22. the F-22 is fairly heavily constrained by ROEs to force it into a combat situation that gives the other aircraft a chance...and to ensure that the F-22 pilots are as proficient as possible in conditions that would be less than optimal for them.