F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[shen]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

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The author makes a compelling case for cancelling the F-35.

USAF pilots are currently flying less hours than PLAAF pilots. That situation is likely to continue until at least 2024. Full commitment to planned number of F-35A will result in a broken USAF.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Those IRST if I'm correct do not work as the DAS system. The former works best by cueing it to a target that's already detected/ tracked by radar.

Nope. Modern IRST in certain cases detects targets before radar. Soviet doctrine in some cases was to turn off radar, and vector fighter towards target until said fighter could detect it with IRST . And technology progressed rapidly in this filed in last decade .

Another quote from Kloos that you also used:

Again, if you cleaned off an F-16 and wanted to turn and maintain Gs and [turn] rates, then I think a clean F-16 would certainly outperform a loaded F-35," Kloos says. "But if you compared them at combat loadings, the F-35 I think would probably outperform it."

Usual combat load for F-16 is couple of bombs, on or two fuel tanks, and AAMs . Well, in that configuration F-35 certainly turns better But, if you have clean F-16 (no stores) and add two or four AAMs , performance would not drop significantly . Therefore, as I said , F-35 will have its hand full with any 4th gen fighter in close combat. Even if said fighter had some external stores, common practice dictates jettisoning them before entering dogfight.

The fact that all countries place their bets on stealthy airframes (UAVs, Fighters, Bombers etc.) reflects the distinctive advantage that stealth technology brings to the fight. The US military does not choose between either stealth or avionics (jamming), but uses both. It can therefore be argued that any progress made in anti-stealth radars, will necessarily bring progress being made to anti-stealth radar jammers. A fighter with a low RCS does not need much jamming assistance, compared to non-stealthy airframes. Radars need to figure out whether any return they get are airplanes, irrelevant returns, errors etc.

Actually, countries producing 5th gen and 4.5th gen fighters strive to combine stealthiness, superior avionics and maneuverability . Low RCS (at some frequencies) is certainly a good thing. Problem is, shape of F-35 is a product of 90's and it was designed to defeat threats from that time . Avionics advance at much higher tempo . Already Russians claim that RCS of F-22 is 0.4 sqm (therefore F-35 would have even higher RCS) . Of course, we could ask at what frequencies and with what radar, but that doesn't change the fact that stealthiness of F-35 would be greatly reduced as years pass by . We could get into situation that few years past 2020 every major opponent could detect and attack F-35 at distances close to 100km .

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

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The author makes a compelling case for cancelling the F-35.

USAF pilots are currently flying less hours than PLAAF pilots. That situation is likely to continue until at least 2024. Full commitment to planned number of F-35A will result in a broken USAF.

That my boy is absolutely absurd, it is and has been popular/even P/C to jump on the F-22, and now the F-35, particularly for those with political aspirations or desiring upper level staff jobs in USAF, or at the Pentagon? While I agree with master Delfts point that the F-35 has had a tough time jumping through all the hoops, and yes it is expensive, it is in point of fact a very fine airplane, it will excel at situational awareness, it is likely the stealthiest of all the current crop of fifth gen wannabees, and it will be an easy airplane to take into combat, with few to no bad habits or coffin corners. USAF pilots make LOTS of MONEY, many of them own their own airplanes, and they fly a lot. They are, and will continue to be the best, because apart from politics and quota's that is the minimum standard.......

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Actually, countries producing 5th gen and 4.5th gen fighters strive to combine stealthiness, superior avionics and maneuverability . Low RCS (at some frequencies) is certainly a good thing. Problem is, shape of F-35 is a product of 90's and it was designed to defeat threats from that time . Avionics advance at much higher tempo . Already Russians claim that RCS of F-22 is 0.4 sqm (therefore F-35 would have even higher RCS) . .[/QUOTE]

And pray tell which countries are producing a 5th gen aircraft my boy??????? only one, and partners as the F-35 is the only 5th gen currently in production, and that is LRIP,,,,,, no one else is beyond the prototype stage, there are, to our knowledge 4 J-20 prototypes, 1 J-31 prototype/proof of concept, and 5 or 6 PAK-FA, depending on whether or not you wish to include the 5th prototype which recently suffered a rather extensive fire???

The F-35 is shaped fine, it is a fighter/attack aircraft, and will carry a load internally, when the initial hi risk threat is neutralized by the F-22/F-35 partners, many fourth gen aircraft and F-22s and F-35s with external stores will load-up and put weapons on target, with precision....

So conjecture is fabulous, when you understand what you have to start with? when you don't understand the equipment at hand,, or its intended role, then you will get it wrong-----"every time"!

 

[shen]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

That my boy is absolutely absurd, it is and has been popular/even P/C to jump on the F-22, and now the F-35, particularly for those with political aspirations or desiring upper level staff jobs in USAF, or at the Pentagon? While I agree with master Delfts point that the F-35 has had a tough time jumping through all the hoops, and yes it is expensive, it is in point of fact a very fine airplane, it will excel at situational awareness, it is likely the stealthiest of all the current crop of fifth gen wannabees, and it will be an easy airplane to take into combat, with few to no bad habits or coffin corners. USAF pilots make LOTS of MONEY, many of them own their own airplanes, and they fly a lot. They are, and will continue to be the best, because apart from politics and quota's that is the minimum standard.......

He is not necessarily saying the F-35 is bad aircraft, just that the USAF can't afford it. Buying the planned number of F-35A will force cuts in less glamorous but critical areas such as electronic warfare, maintenance and training, and equipment purchases that would be more suitable for the more likely low intensity conflicts. Flying your private light plane is not same as training hours spent in combat aircraft.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

He is not necessarily saying the F-35 is bad aircraft, just that the USAF can't afford it. Buying the planned number of F-35A will force cuts in less glamorous but critical areas such as electronic warfare, maintenance and training, and equipment purchases that would be more suitable for the more likely low intensity conflicts. Flying your private light plane is not same as training hours spent in combat aircraft.

T
Now you're back up to your usual standard, and you're right, the F-35 is a fine airplane, and it is quite likely with this president and his failing economy and weakened military, that we will buy less than we had planned. Truth is so will the Russians and Chinese.

 

[shen]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

T
Now you're back up to your usual standard, and you're right, the F-35 is a fine airplane, and it is quite likely with this president and his failing economy and weakened military, that we will buy less than we had planned. Truth is so will the Russians and Chinese.

I'm not sure if I would go as far a "fine airplane"
But I'm sure its teething problems will be worked out eventually with enough money thrown at it. Only because it is too big to fail. Cancelling the F-35 may be good for the USAF, but what is USN (they at least have the Super Bug), USMC, and allies going to do?

this is what Air Combat Command chief Gen. Mike Hostage have to say about it.

“I’m going to have some F-35s doing air superiority, some doing those early phases of persistent attack, opening the holes, and again, the F-35 is not compelling unless it’s there in numbers,” the general says. “Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two (F-22) Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.”

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[Scyth]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Nope. Modern IRST in certain cases detects targets before radar. Soviet doctrine in some cases was to turn off radar, and vector fighter towards target until said fighter could detect it with IRST . And technology progressed rapidly in this filed in last decade .

Soviet doctrine does not apply as they'd have to guide fighters based on radar. Modern IRST can detect long range targets if they know where to look. Max detection range of radars are higher than max effective range of those radars. That also applies for IRST systems.

Usual combat load for F-16 is couple of bombs, on or two fuel tanks, and AAMs . Well, in that configuration F-35 certainly turns better But, if you have clean F-16 (no stores) and add two or four AAMs , performance would not drop significantly . Therefore, as I said , F-35 will have its hand full with any 4th gen fighter in close combat. Even if said fighter had some external stores, common practice dictates jettisoning them before entering dogfight.

If you have a CLEAN F-16, you have nothing but the gun. If you add missiles, it ain't clean anymore. Those missiles and missile pylons also add drag.

Actually, countries producing 5th gen and 4.5th gen fighters strive to combine stealthiness, superior avionics and maneuverability .

The reason that those countries who have access (UK, US)/ or aim to produce (Russia) stealth fighters and integrate them with 4.5 gen fighters is because they have a large chunk of 4.5 gen fleet that they can't dispose/ replace instantly. Furthermore, in the case of the UK they need to send a message to potential Typhoon buyers that their aircraft is not outdated or useless even if the F-35 comes fully operational. It's not that the F-35 can gain much with regards to sensors by communicating with the Typhoon, while the latter does get a lot out of working with the JSF

Low RCS (at some frequencies) is certainly a good thing. Problem is, shape of F-35 is a product of 90's and it was designed to defeat threats from that time . Avionics advance at much higher tempo . Already Russians claim that RCS of F-22 is 0.4 sqm (therefore F-35 would have even higher RCS) . Of course, we could ask at what frequencies and with what radar, but that doesn't change the fact that stealthiness of F-35 would be greatly reduced as years pass by .

If you think the F-35 is outdated because of being a product of the 90s, then tell me how outdated should those F-16s, Eurofighters be then? Measuring the RCS of an aircraft is a super complex task, which angle, which distance, which frequency, which area etc. all come to play. The USAF says the Raptor has the RCS somewhere in 0.0001, the Russians say it's 0.3. Is the latter an average overall value and the former the frontal value? I don't know, but both the F-35 and the F-22 are designed to engage in enemy territory from day one with little to no support.

The Russians claim a lot. If they really did not believe in stealth technology, as in that's really useless because their air defence systems can negate stealth technology, then why are they spending so much resources on trying to build a F-22 look alike? Sometimes it's not about what people claim, but about what they do.

We could get into situation that few years past 2020 every major opponent could detect and attack F-35 at distances close to 100km .

Let's say that you are right. If the F-35 can be detected at 100km from a couple years later on, then non-stealthy aircraft must be detected and engaged over distances of like 800KM+?

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

And pray tell which countries are producing a 5th gen aircraft my boy??????? only one, and partners as the F-35 is the only 5th gen currently in production, and that is LRIP,,,,,, no one else is beyond the prototype stage, there are, to our knowledge 4 J-20 prototypes, 1 J-31 prototype/proof of concept, and 5 or 6 PAK-FA, depending on whether or not you wish to include the 5th prototype which recently suffered a rather extensive fire???

Correct answer would be none - production of F-22 is halted But, as you said yourself, we have 3 countries with definite flying prototypes . Some small changes could happen but overall pattern is clear. As for LRIP of F-35, we shall see what would become of current examples . There are lot of rumors about combat capabilities of current lot. Also, we should not forget countries like India and Japan with their own 5th gen programs .

The F-35 is shaped fine, it is a fighter/attack aircraft, and will carry a load internally, when the initial hi risk threat is neutralized by the F-22/F-35 partners, many fourth gen aircraft and F-22s and F-35s with external stores will load-up and put weapons on target, with precision....

Well, you basically prove the point of F-35 critics , F-35 could not achieve air superiority on their own It is a strike aircraft with secondary fighter capability, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[thunderchief]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Soviet doctrine does not apply as they'd have to guide fighters based on radar. Modern IRST can detect long range targets if they know where to look. Max detection range of radars are higher than max effective range of those radars. That also applies for IRST systems.

Soviets would guide fighters to approximate coordinates of the target. IRST would still have to acquire said target in fairly wide search area . Modern IRSTs are even more capable, they could operate independently much like mechanically steered radar . But you don't even have to do that . In close combat IRST and radar could be locked on target with HMS .

If you have a CLEAN F-16, you have nothing but the gun. If you add missiles, it ain't clean anymore. Those missiles and missile pylons also add drag.

Yeah, and if you add 2xAIM-9 and 2xAIM-120 , suddenly your F-16 becomes unmaneuverable piece of junk

The reason that those countries who have access (UK, US)/ or aim to produce (Russia) stealth fighters and integrate them with 4.5 gen fighters is because they have a large chunk of 4.5 gen fleet that they can't dispose/ replace instantly. Furthermore, in the case of the UK they need to send a message to potential Typhoon buyers that their aircraft is not outdated or useless even if the F-35 comes fully operational. It's not that the F-35 can gain much with regards to sensors by communicating with the Typhoon, while the latter does get a lot out of working with the JSF

Yeah, and British, being incredibly stupid, will continue to fund both obsolete Typhoon and ultra-modern F-35. In fact, instead of buying superior F-35A , they would procure more of completely inferior Typhoons

If you think the F-35 is outdated because of being a product of the 90s, then tell me how outdated should those F-16s, Eurofighters be then? Measuring the RCS of an aircraft is a super complex task, which angle, which distance, which frequency, which area etc. all come to play. The USAF says the Raptor has the RCS somewhere in 0.0001, the Russians say it's 0.3. Is the latter an average overall value and the former the frontal value? I don't know, but both the F-35 and the F-22 are designed to engage in enemy territory from day one with little to no support.

Money blown on F-35 would be better spent on 3 things : 1) upgrading current F-16 fleet to be able to perform most of F-35 tasks against most of the opponents 2) purchasing new and improved 4.5 gen version of F-16 based on Super Viper version offered to India (F-16 IN) and block 60 3) restarting F-22 production .

As for US vs Russian claims, funny thing is both sides could be right . But there is no doubt that radar technology has improved significantly in last decade . F-35, being late , could arrive at significantly altered battlefield , one it was not designed to fight on .

The Russians claim a lot. If they really did not believe in stealth technology, as in that's really useless because their air defence systems can negate stealth technology, then why are they spending so much resources on trying to build a F-22 look alike? Sometimes it's not about what people claim, but about what they do.

Let's say that you are right. If the F-35 can be detected at 100km from a couple years later on, then non-stealthy aircraft must be detected and engaged over distances of like 800KM+?

As I said before, stealthiness could be useful in some circumstances but completely useless in other . To give you an example, machine-gun on the tank is useful against infantry, but almost completely useless against other tanks . Russian PAK FA , even without stealth, is still kinetically superb airplane . So is F-22 . F-35 - I don't think so .