F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[bd popeye]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Unfortunately, one issue with the marines is that since they're fundamentally amphibious infantry, they'll get less training in their intended tasks compared to the USAF or USN pilots. While USMC soldiers are extremely well-trained, with some particularly crack units, the fact that every marine is ultimately a rifleman means that their piloting will be a bit below par.

How is this possible? Having served with the US Navy in Naval Aviation for 20 years I can tell that to this day USMC pilots receive as much training and the very same training as USN pilots.. By the way they are all US Naval Aviators.

 

[Franklin]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

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This is a neat block posting from FoxtrotAlpha
He gives a list of seven things he thinks could make USMC Lightning LHA/LHD forces a really potent force.

That article raises 2 interesting points.

Which is first and foremost that without the compromises for VSTOL operations for the marine version the F-35 would have been a much better and cheaper plane. Ironically the F-35 without those compromises would look a lot like the J-31.

The second question that it raises is does the USMC even need a stealth plane ? Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the main task of the USMC air component is to give close in air support for the marines ground operations. Where the danger doesn't come from integrated air defense systems but rather from MANPADS, triple A guns and small arms fire. Do you really need a stealth plane to counter that ? In those circumstances most of the times the people can see the planes with their naked eyes! I would think that platforms like the A-10, Apache's, Cobra's or just the plain old Harriers will be much better suited for the task. Especially since the F-35B doesn't come with an internal gun and has to carry a gunpod with limited rounds. And for beach landings there will be support from ship based firepower for the marines. Once again you don't need a stealth plane.

Another thing is if they follow up with those recommendations of that article and the F-35B's are going to start doing deep strike missions. Wouldn't that divert resources away for air cover for the marines ground operations which is what the air arm of the USMC was meant to do ?

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

That article raises 2 interesting points.

Which is first and foremost that without the compromises for VSTOL operations for the marine version the F-35 would have been a much better and cheaper plane. Ironically the F-35 without those compromises would look a lot like the J-31.

The second question that it raises is does the USMC even need a stealth plane ? Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the main task of the USMC air component is to give close in air support for the marines ground operations. Where the danger doesn't come from integrated air defense systems but rather from MANPADS, triple A guns and small arms fire. Do you really need a stealth plane to counter that ? In those circumstances most of the times the people can see the planes with their naked eyes! I would think that platforms like the A-10, Apache's, Cobra's or just the plain old Harriers will be much better suited for the task. Especially since the F-35B doesn't come with an internal gun and has to carry a gunpod with limited rounds. And for beach landings there will be support from ship based firepower for the marines. Once again you don't need a stealth plane.

Another thing is if they follow up with those recommendations of that article and the F-35B's are going to start doing deep strike missions. Wouldn't that divert resources away for air cover for the marines ground operations which is what the air arm of the USMC was meant to do ?

point one
Correct. Had they not made the choice joint three replacements in one. the F35A would likely have been a very different Air frames and the Same for F35C.

Point 2
The USMC Aviation is not isolated to the CAS role. they fight Air superiority and Electronic warfare. The USMC Aviation wing includes not just AV8's but Also F/A 18 C-D, EA6 prowlers, They also operate F5's in Adversary roles. F35B is meant to replace Harrier, Hornet, and Prowler. Three platforms that operate in three ranges of roles. Hornet is a bomber and a fighter, Harrier is a CAS and Proweler is a jammer/ Bomber. now the True CAS role can be used in F35 but it's shared with a Antitank Helicopter and USMC armed transports that means AH1-Z and UH1Y and future replacements. As it's not just fitting into the CAS role F35B can use it's stealth particularly in opening acts of a conflict, Which is where Deep strike comes in.
in the CAS role by sharing it with other assets the mission can still be covered.

 

[Inst]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I do mention here that below par is the USAF / USN par, not the par of other armed forces. As is well-known, NATO pilots get extensive flight training compared to their ex-Soviet or Chinese counterparts, and due to American intervention across the globe over the past two decades USAF pilots also have much more real-world experience than their rivals in other countries.

That said, F-15C pilots trained as "not a pound for air to ground" vs "every man a rifleman" USMC F-18 / Harrier pilots. Who is better trained for their mission? Who has less distractions to keep them from doing their work?

Of course, there are benefits from USMC-style "every man a rifleman" doctrine, like the following story, where USMC pilots and maintenance personnel repelled an insurgent attack in Afghanistan (

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), Air Force pilots are specialists and would never have been able to do the job themselves.

 

[Franklin]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

point one
Correct. Had they not made the choice joint three replacements in one. the F35A would likely have been a very different Air frames and the Same for F35C.

Point 2
The USMC Aviation is not isolated to the CAS role. they fight Air superiority and Electronic warfare. The USMC Aviation wing includes not just AV8's but Also F/A 18 C-D, EA6 prowlers, They also operate F5's in Adversary roles. F35B is meant to replace Harrier, Hornet, and Prowler. Three platforms that operate in three ranges of roles. Hornet is a bomber and a fighter, Harrier is a CAS and Proweler is a jammer/ Bomber. now the True CAS role can be used in F35 but it's shared with a Antitank Helicopter and USMC armed transports that means AH1-Z and UH1Y and future replacements. As it's not just fitting into the CAS role F35B can use it's stealth particularly in opening acts of a conflict, Which is where Deep strike comes in.
in the CAS role by sharing it with other assets the mission can still be covered.

Fair enough. The USMC can replace the F/A-18 and EA6 Prowlers they have with F-35's but do they need to replace the Harriers too with a stealth plane ? What is the point having a stealth plane hovering over a battlefield when people can see the plane with their eyes ? In other words having VSTOL capabilities on a stealth plane doesn't make sense and is a bad idea. And the tragedy in this case has been multiplied many folds as this has compromised the effectiveness of the planes of the USAF and the USN. The US and her allies would have been better off militarily and financially with a F-35 without VSTOL for the USMC.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

All for one one for all. The Marines plan was two Fighter fleet. F35B for the back bone and F35C for Carrier ops. If Stealth was wanted for the F/A 18 replacement then it would then be in the whole fleet. The Marines wanted a Universal plane for perceived ease of logistics.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

That said, F-15C pilots trained as "not a pound for air to ground" vs "every man a rifleman" USMC F-18 / Harrier pilots. Who is better trained for their mission? Who has less distractions to keep them from doing their work?

First "Not a pound for Air to Ground" is a reference to the design of the F15 not the pilots mind set. IT was optimized for air to Air missions. All American Airmen, Aviators go through Ground forces training. As a Cadet or ROTC USAF officers are trained to maintain and operate M16A2 series weapons.

Of course, there are benefits from USMC-style "every man a rifleman" doctrine, like the following story, where USMC pilots and maintenance personnel repelled an insurgent attack in Afghanistan (

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), Air Force pilots are specialists and would never have been able to do the job themselves.

Air Force and Navy pilots are not the Push overs your trying to make them either. if the situation demanded it they would fight back. the only thing you are getting is a perception. the Marines demand All Officers go through basic Infantry training. thats standard for every service the only difference is the Marines push it as a motto.

 

[Franklin]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The Marines wanted a Universal plane for perceived ease of logistics.

And air power in the entire Western World paid the price for it.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

to a degree. For the USMC it means changing the missions set of the VTol Fighter. For those of US allies not Quite. The British, the Spanish, the Italians All operate there Harriers in the Multirole. meaning the Same mission set the USMC would be Adopting with F35B.
the Sacrifices are made in the F35A and F35C models.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I believe the US Marines, Spanish, the Italians, and the British are all going to use the F-35B and they will all be trained very well in its use.

I believe utlimately that the Japanese, the Australians, and the Koreans are going to do the same. The F-35B is just too good an option for Navies with any desire to have naval air arms operate off of their smaller carrier-like vessels to give it a pass.

As these nations do so, you will see the toal number of F-35B buys increase.

As to the other issues regarding "not a pound for ground to ground." and "every Maerine a Rifleman," we are talking about mottos, not doctrine when it comes to aviation. There is a HUGE difference. One of those mottos, as has been stated, is specifically related to the F-15 air superiority fighter, which is not used at all for ground support. Thus that motto.

The others is a general USMC motto. The fact is, as has been stated, all US military services train their pilots in infantry fighting tactics because any and all of them may be shot down. The USMC just applies that level of training across the board for all of their MOS and then has made a motto of it.

As popeye says...a man who spent over 20 years in carrier aviation...the US Marine corp pilots are equally well trained and exercised to their US Navy and USAF counterparts. They have pilots that do close air support, they have pilots that do Air Superiority, the have pilots that do EW, etc., etc. All of them are extremely well trained and exercised and go to the same types of Red Flag and Top Gun training as the others.

So, the USMC aviators are not somehow "below par," they are equally well trained and are equally proficient as pilots in the US Navy and USAF. As I stated, I am unaware of any credible documentation, reports, white papers, etc. that would indicate anything different. If there are such reports, we should post them and analyze them. I am unaware of any.