F-22 versus J-20 milestone comparison (production, test, operations)

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
May be OT, but J-20 is now making milestones ahead of F-22. Eg first flight with wingman drone.

I also agree with previous poster that once WS-15 is ready we could see it’s true mass production numbers, and I think the numbers produced could be really big, mainly because the platform is adaptable and many variants are possible, thus it could be built for a long time, even with 6th gen around the corner.
 

4Runner

Junior Member
Registered Member
For the record, I feel obliged to add that this is not intended to be (nor presented) as a comparison of the quality or capabilities of the aircraft, nor a comparison of the industrial or technological bases of each aircraft.

The focus is less on "explaining" why there may be certain differences or similarities in time elapsed, and more focused on how the F-22's milestones may help to inform J-20's program understanding and its projections going forwards.
Great work! I particularly appreciate your methodology of "letting data speak for itself".
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Since when is or was there a „first flight with a wingman drone“ ??
Ah, maybe that is premature and I could be remembering wrong.

There was a post on the forum in the last few days, noting that a J-20 pilot had said that they wanted to use drones with the J20S, they had experimented, and the number of drones it would fly with is 4. I think what he actaullay implied was that the drones intended for the J20S have flown together, but maybe not yet together with a J-20S.

He also said that they had tried several types of drones. Maybe this is one:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If i find the post I will update here.
Edit here it is: J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

I got it wrong. The milestone hasn’t happened yet.

But I do think we will see this capability soon, and that it will be such a milestone that J20 surpasses the F22.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The F-22 is already being treated by the USAF as a legacy platform. Most of the upgrade packages are severely delayed and some were canceled altogether. If you look at it, the much older F-15 is getting upgrades while the F-22 isn't.

The J-20 has now got the dual seater and I am certain the amount of weapon types it can carry will increase in the future.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interested in opinions and feedback.

I enjoyed it so much I almost feel bad for what I'm about to do. But like Aeschylus tells us in Agamemnon: "...we must suffer, suffer into truth." and this thread doesn't seem to have a devil's advocate.

Allow me.

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Let's start with America:
  1. The nature of American defense industry requires by law to focus on the company's fiduciary interest which is the delivery of shareholder value and not the delivery of the product to the end user which is the US government's armed forces. As far as the fundamental workings of the market are concerned the US legal system puts shareholders over consumers.
  2. The history of F-22 development needs to be analyzed in conjunction with the the consolidation of the defense industry in 1990s and the reduction of military spending following the end of the Cold War - from 4.9% GDP in 1991 to 3.1% GDP in 2000.
  3. The history of F-22 development needs to be analyzed in conjunction with the development of F-35 as the two programs are directly connected and form a comprehensive attempt of Lockheed to re-enter the fighter market which it lost after the problematic F-104.
Because of [1],[2] and [3] the development process will necessarily reflect attempts to maximize shareholder value in a changing environment and not robust product delivery.

This should be contrasted with conditions in China in terms of those three factors:
  1. Chinese defense industry is by default a consolidated entity in terms of control and ownership. It is controlled by the CPC which also directly controls the PLA - the end user of the product.
  2. The period following 1991 is characterized rapid growth in military spending in nominal terms. American military spending from 1991 to 2010 grows by 150% from $300bn to $750bn majority of which is consumed by war. Chinese military spending from 2000 to 2010 grows 1160% by from $10bn to $116bn none of which is consumed by war. The increase in real value is a separate question.
  3. The development of J-20 is a single process not influenced by the decisions of two established manufacturers with ongoing large orders for J-11/15/16 and J-10 respectively. J-20 was not an existential matter for CAC in the same way that F-22 and F-35 were for Lockheed.

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Here are some important dates and numbers to illustrate the conditions which Lockheed had to consider while delivering shareholder value through ATF and JSF programs.

In 1986 the initial plans for the ATF call for 750 fighters at cost of $26.2 bn with production beginning in 1994. The cost of $35m for ATF airframe is comparable to the 1990 program cost of a F-15E with a lantrin pod.

In 1986 (October) Lockheed (partnered with Boeing and General Dynamics) and Northrop (partnered with McDonnelDouglas) are selected for the final stage competition.

In 1990 a "Major Program Review" led by US Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney reduces the number of ATF to 648 fighters - a reduction of 13,6% compared to the previous figure. This review also cancells McDonnelDouglas/General Dynamics A-12 and reduces the orders for Northrop B-2 from 132 to 75 and for McDonnelDouglas C-17 from 210 to 120. B-2 orders will be reduced in 1992 from 75 to just 20 - the so called "death spiral".

In 1991 (April) Lockheed is awarded the contract for production of F-22 prototype and Pratt&Whitney is awarded the contract for the F119.

In 1991 (September) Lockheed enters in a secret partnership with Yakovlev to restrict access to Yak-141 technology to competitors as a protective measure for their own proprietary technology for the lifting fan. The funding provided by Lockheed was revealed to be approximately $400 million.

In 1993 Lockheed acquires from General Dynamics the F-16 manufacturing plant in Fort Worth. Lockheed at the time has no large-scale manufacturing facility for fighters as following the failure of F-104 it only manufactured specialized aircraft (F-117 - 64 airframes between 1981 and 1991) and large transport jets (C-5, C-130)

In 1993 JAST (Joint Advanced Strike Technology) is formed by USAF and USMC under inspiration from Lockheed. The lifting fan in the USMC variant is replaced by fuel tank for USAF variant which is found acceptable.

In 1994 JAST merges with CALF (Common Affordable Lightweight Fighter) formed by USN to create Joint Strike Fighter. The US Navy was forced into the JSF program through a series of cuts to F-14D as well as A-12 and NATF (naval F-22). The F/A-18E/F was approved in 1992 as a cheaper alternative to the F-14D and had its first flight in 1995. It was however always considered by USN as an interim fighter replacing preferred solutions for budgetary reasons.

In 1995 (March) Lockheed merges with Martin Marietta after a year of negotiations started in March of 1994.

In 1996 (November)the contract for the prototype for JSF is awarded to Lockheed and Boeing.

In 1997 the number of ATF Fighters - now officially F-22 - is further reduced to 339 fighters - a reduction of 47,6% compared to the 1990 figure.

In 2001 (October) Lockheed is awarded the contract for the F-35. No order for production of specific number of planes.
In 2003 the number of F-22 is further reduced to 277 fighters - a reduction of 18,2%.

In 2004 the number of F-22 is further reduced to 183 fighters - a reduction of 33,9%. This number is a formal order for F-22. USAF makes a formal request for 381 fighters which is amended by Congress. The cost of the program in FY06 dollars is estimated at 62 bn. - approximately 339 million per airframe.

In 2009 (April) an order for 2443 F-35 is announced.

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I think that knowledge of the timeline of business decisions influencing the development process is fundamental to understanding how unique both the F-22 and F-35 were as military procurement programs.

Contrary to what many might suspect it had very little to do with delays in the development of engines or radars which were provided separately from the airframe and integration by experienced world-leading manufacturers in their respective fields.

The F-22 was Lockheed's attempt to gain entry into the fighter market which at the time was dominated by McDonnelDouglas (F-15, F/A-18), General Dynamics (F-16) and Grumman (F-14). Interestingly the YF-17 was made by Northrop which further underscores the lagging position of Lockheed.

Lockheed was chosen as the lead company primarily because of its political connections and participation in the U-2, SR-71 and F-117 programs which absolutely meant that it was closest in connection to the intelligence community. Those connections and the resulting influencing of decision-makers and not the industrial capability or ongoing performance are the foundation of the company's financial success in the later decades. Understanding of it is also necessary to understand why it took so long for Lockheed to reach certain milestones both with the F-22 and F-35.

It was not just the nature of the market but also the nature of the main player in the market.

If we look at F-22 and F-35 then between 1990 and 2010 we have a difficult shrinking market being cornered by a company that gained orders on the promise of delivery while it was acquiring the necessary know-how and production capability on the fly through leveraged acquisitions.

Comparison to an established state-owned manufacturer with an ongoing large-scale production will not yield meaningful conclusions. Almost everything about the production of J-20 will be different from F-22. From the overall market conditions (shrinking market vs growing market) through business decisions (shareholder value vs product delivery) to the specific development choices ( production of "complete F-22" vs production of J-20 with AL-31 and WS-10)

A more meaningful view of J-20 milestones would be gained from analysis of earlier programs - F-15, F-16, F/A-18 and the F-14 as a placebo group.

All of them were introduced in conditions of an expanding market with stable funding, none were "closed systems" like F-22 (see: F-16 and engines) and without consolidation affecting the planning of production. They were all revolutionary aircraft at their time in no way inferior in terms of technology to the F-22 at its time.

Fundamentally all economic activity is about predicting and managing human behaviour. Technology is just a by-product.

Stealth is not a game-changer. It is however the only proprietary technology and the only thing that Lockheed has to show for in the 1980s. What did Lockheed have - apart from thick envelopes for the right pockets - that made it the lead company in a team with General Dynamics and Boeing???

Just smile and wave boys. Smile and wave.

--------

A parting note: let's not get distracted into comparing F-35 to J-20. The only thing that these two programs have in common is that there's an aircraft involved somewhere. They couldn't be more different in their scope, goal or character.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I enjoyed it so much I almost feel bad for what I'm about to do. But like Aeschylus tells us in Agamemnon: "...we must suffer, suffer into truth." and this thread doesn't seem to have a devil's advocate.

Allow me.

I appreciate the feedback, but I think you've misunderstood the intent of the comparison.

As I wrote in the original post and the subsequent post, I said:

"We can see that the years elapsed for J-20 to progress to certain milestones is somewhat faster than F-22 -- but this should not be interpreted as a sign of greater efficiency on the part of J-20 from an industry/technology point of view, as we must recall that the bulk of F-22's development was undertaken in the immediate post cold war era where funding for it was consistently cut, as well as a general reduced sense of urgency. Meanwhile, for J-20's development, I suspect neither urgency nor funding was hard to find."

and,

"For the record, I feel obliged to add that this is not intended to be (nor presented) as a comparison of the quality or capabilities of the aircraft, nor a comparison of the industrial or technological bases of each aircraft.
The focus is less on "explaining" why there may be certain differences or similarities in time elapsed, and more focused on how the F-22's milestones may help to inform J-20's program understanding and its projections going forwards."


I would say the primary purpose of this comparison is for the sake of general interest and having a document comparing the duration of respective milestones, and the other secondary purpose is to have a similar (though not perfectly parallel) comparison for us to try and form an estimate for J-20's future production trajectory, depending on how various assumptions are titrated.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
I appreciate the feedback, but I think you've misunderstood the intent of the comparison.

I didn't misunderstand anything. I have no comments on the primary purpose i.e. the presentation of hard data on F-22 and J-20 as a case study for each aircraft. I played the role of the devil's advocate to the secondary purpose. Here my case:

F-22 is not a meaningful comparison because it is an example of a death spiral and not a continued strategic program.

Compare:
  • F-22 - 750 airframes planned, 648 airframes approved in 1990 review, 183 airframes produced - 24% of planned number, 28% of approved number. Not exported.
  • B-2 - 132 airframes planned, 75 airframes approved in 1990 review, 20 airframes produced - 15% of planned number, 26% of approved number. Not exported.
  • Eurofighter - 765 airframes planned, 620 airframes approved in 1996 agreement, 472 airframes produced for primary users - 62% of planned number, 76% of approved number. Additional 151 airframes produced for export users which allowed to reach the 620 airframe threshold and 100% approved production.
B-2 is the original "death spiral". But if F-22's numbers match B-2's numbers... Oh and let's not forget that F-22 had the production line dismantled so that the production could not be restarted immediately after completing the production run. Literally the story of F-22 ended with the last Raptor that came off that production line.

In my view J-20 is more similar to European fighter programs like Rafale, Gripen or Eurofighter in that it is a program of investment in technology and capability being separate from the ultimately ordered number of airframes which follow from ongoing procurement. Eurocanards also had delays to engines, radars, systems, weapons etc. which were caused by delays in technology development. Majority of F-22's technology was transferred onto the F-35 program as F-22 was winded down and the final number of F-22 airframes produced was a severance payment to retain capability necessary for F-35. As soon as F-22 production was ending the LRIP of F-35 began.

I argue that 20 airframes per production lot is not something that is inherent to such design. It is what was necessary to keep the production line sufficiently funded that Lockheed wouldn't get too far into the red keeping it open for F-35. In the case of F-22 you shouldn't be thinking "this is how many aircraft are produced at this stage of such project" because F-22 production lines were planned for 648 and only later 339 airframes. We should think about it in terms of: ("number of airframes" x "contracted airframe cost") / "necessary manufacturing positions".

Also this quote from Wikipedia:

"F-22 production was split up over many subcontractors across 46 states to increase Congressional support, though this production split may have contributed to increased costs and delays. Many capabilities were deferred to post-service upgrades, reducing the initial cost but increasing total program cost. Production supported over 1,000 subcontractors and suppliers and up to 95,000 jobs"

20 per lot over a decade is how Lockheed's setup for F-35 got paid to stay afloat within the bounds of federal contracts. It's not like Boeing wasn't looking for literally any chance to kill both the F-22 or the F-35. The Pentagon couldn't simply give Lockheed the money under "strategic investment program" because that's not how US military procurement works.

This is for example how three Zumwalts funded the technologies from "Surface Combatant for the 21st century" program.

If you really insist on comparison with ongoing 5gen programs then it is more practical to compare J-20 to F-35 despite the difference in scale and scope, especially that F-35 also had a delay and continues to have ongoing issues which to some degree could be compared to the delay in introducing WS-15. All you have to do is look at the trendline and percentages rather than bare numbers of production and you might get the comparison you are looking for.

Personally I really think we should be looking either at the previous generation of American aircraft or the Eurocanards. Considering that China's aerospace industry is in a more similar condition and has a more similar structure to European industry than to American industry I think Eurocanards are at least a good indication of overcoming technological hurdles. As for scale of production - that's where American 4th gens might come useful. Put one and the other together and it might be more instructive than the data on F-22's death spiral.

Of all the aircraft the F-22 seems like the singular worst point of reference to draw conclusions about future performance of the program. J-20 is a dragon that is flying higher and higher. F-22 is a dragon without wings that ended up looking like a featherless chicken.

And by the way recently Lockheed received a 10,9 billion contract for ARES (Advanced Raptor Enhancement and Sustainment) that is ~60 million per airframe pricetag to keep the Raptors flying into the mid-late 30s. That's besides the regular cost of sustaining the operations. This chicken has neither feathers nor legs.

I'm all for further study of the miracles of J-20 but on this particular issue the devil has a point. And with that I rest my case and you are now all welcome to hurl creative insults and occasional blunt objects in my general direction. Have a good day gentlemen.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I didn't misunderstand anything. I have no comments on the primary purpose i.e. the presentation of hard data on F-22 and J-20 as a case study for each aircraft. I played the role of the devil's advocate to the secondary purpose. Here my case:

F-22 is not a meaningful comparison because it is an example of a death spiral and not a continued strategic program.

Compare:
  • F-22 - 750 airframes planned, 648 airframes approved in 1990 review, 183 airframes produced - 24% of planned number, 28% of approved number. Not exported.
  • B-2 - 132 airframes planned, 75 airframes approved in 1990 review, 20 airframes produced - 15% of planned number, 26% of approved number. Not exported.
  • Eurofighter - 765 airframes planned, 620 airframes approved in 1996 agreement, 472 airframes produced for primary users - 62% of planned number, 76% of approved number. Additional 151 airframes produced for export users which allowed to reach the 620 airframe threshold and 100% approved production.
B-2 is the original "death spiral". But if F-22's numbers match B-2's numbers... Oh and let's not forget that F-22 had the production line dismantled so that the production could not be restarted immediately after completing the production run. Literally the story of F-22 ended with the last Raptor that came off that production line.

In my view J-20 is more similar to European fighter programs like Rafale, Gripen or Eurofighter in that it is a program of investment in technology and capability being separate from the ultimately ordered number of airframes which follow from ongoing procurement. Eurocanards also had delays to engines, radars, systems, weapons etc. which were caused by delays in technology development. Majority of F-22's technology was transferred onto the F-35 program as F-22 was winded down and the final number of F-22 airframes produced was a severance payment to retain capability necessary for F-35. As soon as F-22 production was ending the LRIP of F-35 began.

I argue that 20 airframes per production lot is not something that is inherent to such design. It is what was necessary to keep the production line sufficiently funded that Lockheed wouldn't get too far into the red keeping it open for F-35. In the case of F-22 you shouldn't be thinking "this is how many aircraft are produced at this stage of such project" because F-22 production lines were planned for 648 and only later 339 airframes. We should think about it in terms of: ("number of airframes" x "contracted airframe cost") / "necessary manufacturing positions".

Also this quote from Wikipedia:

"F-22 production was split up over many subcontractors across 46 states to increase Congressional support, though this production split may have contributed to increased costs and delays. Many capabilities were deferred to post-service upgrades, reducing the initial cost but increasing total program cost. Production supported over 1,000 subcontractors and suppliers and up to 95,000 jobs"

20 per lot over a decade is how Lockheed's setup for F-35 got paid to stay afloat within the bounds of federal contracts. It's not like Boeing wasn't looking for literally any chance to kill both the F-22 or the F-35. The Pentagon couldn't simply give Lockheed the money under "strategic investment program" because that's not how US military procurement works.

This is for example how three Zumwalts funded the technologies from "Surface Combatant for the 21st century" program.

If you really insist on comparison with ongoing 5gen programs then it is more practical to compare J-20 to F-35 despite the difference in scale and scope, especially that F-35 also had a delay and continues to have ongoing issues which to some degree could be compared to the delay in introducing WS-15. All you have to do is look at the trendline and percentages rather than bare numbers of production and you might get the comparison you are looking for.

Personally I really think we should be looking either at the previous generation of American aircraft or the Eurocanards. Considering that China's aerospace industry is in a more similar condition and has a more similar structure to European industry than to American industry I think Eurocanards are at least a good indication of overcoming technological hurdles. As for scale of production - that's where American 4th gens might come useful. Put one and the other together and it might be more instructive than the data on F-22's death spiral.

Of all the aircraft the F-22 seems like the singular worst point of reference to draw conclusions about future performance of the program. J-20 is a dragon that is flying higher and higher. F-22 is a dragon without wings that ended up looking like a featherless chicken.

And by the way recently Lockheed received a 10,9 billion contract for ARES (Advanced Raptor Enhancement and Sustainment) that is ~60 million per airframe pricetag to keep the Raptors flying into the mid-late 30s. That's besides the regular cost of sustaining the operations. This chicken has neither feathers nor legs.

I'm all for further study of the miracles of J-20 but on this particular issue the devil has a point. And with that I rest my case and you are now all welcome to hurl creative insults and occasional blunt objects in my general direction. Have a good day gentlemen.

As each nation's first true 5th generation fighter, the comparison between F-22 and J-20 should be naturally much more intuitive than any other comparison.
The production scale of J-20 was never going to reach that of F-35, nor does J-20 come in multiple variants configured for different landing and takeoff modalities, furthermore F-35 is a product of a much more mature aerospace industry and the US's second stealth fighter type intended for large scale and more affordable production with lessons from the F-22 whereas J-20 is China's first.
A comparison between F-35 and J-20 might be interesting as well, but there are far more moving parts and the two projects are so much more different with so many additional factors to consider, that it is much harder to justify than F-22 and J-20.


And reading this post, I feel like you certainly have misunderstood the purpose of the comparison.

When you write "the miracles of the J-20" that just misses the entire point, because this isn't meant to be a comparison of "which aircraft program was better" or "which aircraft industry did it better".
This isn't a comparison trying to say "look at how good J-20 is".

I appreciate your clarifications as to why comparisons of the two aircraft in program management, industry assessments, cannot be done, but I've written multiple sections in multiple posts already stating it was not a comparison of the aircraft in that manner to begin with.

As well informed as your replies are, I feel obliged to say I think you are interpreting the comparison incorrectly, and at this point it feels like you are making straw man arguments rather than playing devils advocate.


As for F-22 being the single worst point of reference -- I would say that it provides us a very useful base of reference.
Specifically, I think the F-22 provides us a useful floor for working with how J-20 production rate in the near future might emerge, and having the clear data in front of us allows us to consider the likely procurement scale of J-20 and industry and political commitment to J-20, and make a reasonable argument to compare it with F-22 and say "it'll probably be more than that".
 
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