Gentlemen let chime in on this in a uneducated way I am a firm believer in the 22 in a one on one fight however the enemy (whoever) that may be might not fight fair they just may send up more threats than the 22 or any other aircraft have bullets for ie. drones for example that mimics their aircraft from a distance this is where the decision to stop production early May well come back to haunt us very badly
F-22 Raptor Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Brumby
Major
In your disruptive launch scenario it unfortunately ignores a key point in this whole discussion with the F-22 and stealth and the same reason why the Lancaster Law would not be applicable. The F-22 will be able to detect a higher RCS profile aircraft (like F-15 or SU-27) long before a corresponding detection can be made by the counter party. That means the F-22 will have the first shot. It is likely a one sided turkey shoot.one more, and last, sentence, then: I'm completely serious as I believe OPFOR would act in so called crazy way for example launching UNaimed AAMs in order to disrupt your formation, put you off balance, whatever you don't expect (now
We also now know that 5th gen formation separation can be as much as 25 miles apart and that is a lot of empty air space to try to get the AAM to disrupt.
Brumby
Major
I think you are underestimating sensor technologies ability to classify targets. Long before the advent of the F-22, there is a classified but paradoxically well known technology resident only in the F-15 known as Non Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). It has the ability to classify targets simply based on radar returns on the target's fan and turbine blades when matched against the threat library stored in the F-15. It is so effective that It is part of the ROE matrix to classify friend or foe before a BVR shot can be taken. Since then we have the APG-77 and ALR-94 on the F-22, the capabilities are even more advanced and so closely guarded that we have no idea how capable its sensors are. We do know that in red flags, the F-15 are just turkey shoots in BVR engagements.
NO, its not as simple as that, it would have to replicate the turbine fan blade signature, and in fact while some of these things might sound good on the internet, in real life? 2+2 always adds up to 4. Present day, no one has drones of that nature, as a matter of fact, I'm not certain how many Mig 35s are in actual service?
The F-15, F-16, F-18, F-22, and F-35 are a viable, well maintained, and well put together force, it would be utter foolishness for any OP-For to launch a premeditated operation against this force, and "plumb dumb" for any two OP-For to launch a coordinated first strike. The F-22 represents a smaller number than desired, but make NO mistake, it is a force multiplier, the F-35 that will very shortly begin to stack up in numbers greater than the F-22, will also be a powerful force multiplier.
Tonight, into tomorrow and ???? NO OP-FOR has a single fifth gen asset to meet this force, and we continue to upgrade and build our fifth gen fleet at a rate that no one else is capable of replicating. So lets keep it real here on the F-22 thread!
Brumby
Major
The idea of sensor fusion is not a unique capability resident with the F-35 but it was first introduced to the F-22 and then further developed since onto the F-35. We do not know the sensor capabilities of the F-22 but we do know a little more of what is in the F-35 and so I would use that to address your mimic idea. Resident within the F-35 are a set of sensors operating across a spectrum : RF, IR , and Optical. The sensor fusion engine assembles an integrated picture of the battlespace and if the picture is incomplete, it automatically task the appropriate sensors to fill the missing data which is then shared across the network. The battlespace picture has within it, threat assessment of the nature and form of threats and a prioritization against each specific threat. So your drone that mimics as a MIG-35 will have to look like a MIG-35, with engines of a MIG-35, with the speed profile of an MIG-35 and the emission profile of a MIG-35. In short, you will have to build a MIG-35 drone.
A F-18 pilot told me a couple years ago that they could tell a J-10 by its fan blades, so seems like the AN/APG-79 has it too.
Jura The idiot
General
Brumby, you gave me "turkey shoot" baloney, that's why I'm responding again:
- you might want to consider the encounter would occur under Electronic Attack conditions (that's the term used by that USAF Major in where he basically increased the number of AAMs required to achieve a kill if I recall correctly, I don't bother with finding page numbers now), plus
- after "harassing" AAMs launches, there would be loitering missiles, yes, intentionally launched "stupidly", making the battle-space ... messy
the aircraft could be closing rather quickly ... now, Brumby:
I give up, especially on Fools' Day
I won't go on with this conversation when I think you at best present Propaganda, which to me appears to be totally uncritical view of presumably "clean, safe, total victory achieved by pressing a button", and you seem to think I present utter nonsense ... so you won, thanks for arguing again, this is all I can offer EDIT actually there may be one thing, which is the most recent blog:(when responding to you yesterday
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-22-raptor-thread.t6557/page-63#post-394147
I was unaware of it: I mostly use Russian sources for what you of course disbelieve)
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