F-15 Eagle Thread

[Scratch]

I in fact wonder why in all those Silent Eagle concepts from Boeing we never see the stealthy weapons pods the company promoted for the Advanced Super Hornet. In conjunction with the conformal weapon bays that would allow a rather significant amount of enclosed weapons carriage. Or could retain the CFTs for increased range.
If they were ready to sacrifice some top speed, they might also be able to mount a new, fixed, composites inlet, for anopther little bit of RCS savings.

 

[thunderchief]

Come on Chief, quit beating on the ThunderHogge II, you never criticize PAK-FA, which is in a great deal more trouble than the F-35, there appears at present to be only 054 airworthy at present, the rest are under construction or in the shop??? 051 may have returned to flight??? but its hard to say, and you should realize that canards are simply the means control pitch on aircraft that are primarily aft mounted delta main wings, they are in no way superior to stabilators on more conventional aircraft.

Neither have the Chinese incorporated OVT on their J-20?? but the F-35A has been flown to 110 degrees positive angle of attack and recovered without incident, so your criticism is without merit, especially for the reasons you have stated??

Nor do you mention the archaic Air Forces of Russia and China, who are operating many much older airframes as frontline equipment, makes those F-15s look youthful by comparison?? LOL

PAK FA is a sound concept, fast and maneuverable . There appear to be some problems and delays with it, but even if it fails, Russians built only few prototypes so it would not cost them arm and leg .

J-20 is also sound concept. It doesn't have OVT (yet) but it has canards . Again, even if this project fails, China built only few prototypes so it would not cost them too much .

On the other hand, we already have over 100 F-35 that would be obsolete according to Lt.Gen. Bogdan when that plane finally becomes operational . F-35 program is now too big too fail, with billions already spent. No one in Washington could now pull the plug on F-35 . That means, like it or not, we will have hundreds of F-35s in service . And that also means that F-35 would suck the air from other planes, trying to take over their roles even if it isn't suited for them .

What would happen with F-15 ? Plane is no longer in production, barring some unexpected foreign order but USAF definitely would not get new examples . Sure, it could be refurbished and upgraded to certain extent, but let us remind ourselves that as we speak Russians and Chinese are producing brand new Flankers .Upgraded F-15 could hold its own against them, but dominate them - no . Brand new version of F-15, with reduced frontal RCS, lighter and with more powerful engines would be a very interesting thing, cheaper and in some aspects certainly better then F-35 . But this would not happen, so we would have to live with existing upgraded F-15 . Don't get me wrong, plane is still better then most of existing fighters but it's age is beginning to show . It could serve with distinction for another 5-10 years, but after that ...

 

[FORBIN]

we already have over 100 F-35 that would be obsolete

Yes the first need some update about 10 mill each planned but they are not obsolete except obviously about the 10 first which remains in the test fleet as for all aircrafts types.

What would happen with F-15 ?

All F-15E modernised maybe also all C/D or almost with a very good AESA radar and others but F-15 is not Stealth and in more want about 100 mill F-35 now close and therefore it is unnecessary buy new.
In more F-15SE was in fact not Stealth only low observable more close Typhoon, Rafale SER and her weapons load in her weapons bays/CFT is limited to 1000 lb bombs ( 4 AAM max F-35 4 now 6 after ) as F-35B but he is STOVL... different, as i have yet say 1000 lb max against excited ... and 2000 lb against the true bad guys... and this is the advantage of F-35A/C which carry it internaly, F-22 1000 lb max weapons bays shallowest but amazing fighter, the King.

 

[Air Force Brat]

PAK FA is a sound concept, fast and maneuverable . There appear to be some problems and delays with it, but even if it fails, Russians built only few prototypes so it would not cost them arm and leg .

J-20 is also sound concept. It doesn't have OVT (yet) but it has canards . Again, even if this project fails, China built only few prototypes so it would not cost them too much .

On the other hand, we already have over 100 F-35 that would be obsolete according to Lt.Gen. Bogdan when that plane finally becomes operational . F-35 program is now too big too fail, with billions already spent. No one in Washington could now pull the plug on F-35 . That means, like it or not, we will have hundreds of F-35s in service . And that also means that F-35 would suck the air from other planes, trying to take over their roles even if it isn't suited for them .

What would happen with F-15 ? Plane is no longer in production, barring some unexpected foreign order but USAF definitely would not get new examples . Sure, it could be refurbished and upgraded to certain extent, but let us remind ourselves that as we speak Russians and Chinese are producing brand new Flankers .Upgraded F-15 could hold its own against them, but dominate them - no . Brand new version of F-15, with reduced frontal RCS, lighter and with more powerful engines would be a very interesting thing, cheaper and in some aspects certainly better then F-35 . But this would not happen, so we would have to live with existing upgraded F-15 . Don't get me wrong, plane is still better then most of existing fighters but it's age is beginning to show . It could serve with distinction for another 5-10 years, but after that ...

The F-35 is the MOST ADVANCED fighter bomber on the planet Chief, Chris Bogdan did NOT say it is obsolete, knowing everything that's worth knowing about fighter aircraft and their employment as tactical or strategic weapons, the F-35 is the ONLY aircraft that a studied, experienced fighter pilot "might" hope to defeat an F-22. The F-22 is number one, the F-35 is number two. The LRIP birds will need some upgrades and retro-fits to meet their service life expectations, but they are a force to be reckoned with, even today the Marines have 10 serving in an operational/developmental role, the USAF will add 10 more in the next 6-10 months, they are and will be deadly to the opposition.

all the other aircraft you have mentioned are 1. nowhere near any type of maturity as of today, or 2. in actuality are older tech, that will need help to survive in the caustic, dangerous environment of todays air war??? in either case, the F-35 is rapidly taking up the slack and moving into the role of top dog on the battle field of tomorrow.

 

[thunderchief]

The F-35 is the MOST ADVANCED fighter bomber on the planet Chief, Chris Bogdan did NOT say it is obsolete, knowing everything that's worth knowing about fighter aircraft and their employment as tactical or strategic weapons, the F-35 is the ONLY aircraft that a studied, experienced fighter pilot "might" hope to defeat an F-22. The F-22 is number one, the F-35 is number two. The LRIP birds will need some upgrades and retro-fits to meet their service life expectations, but they are a force to be reckoned with, even today the Marines have 10 serving in an operational/developmental role, the USAF will add 10 more in the next 6-10 months, they are and will be deadly to the opposition.

all the other aircraft you have mentioned are 1. nowhere near any type of maturity as of today, or 2. in actuality are older tech, that will need help to survive in the caustic, dangerous environment of todays air war??? in either case, the F-35 is rapidly taking up the slack and moving into the role of top dog on the battle field of tomorrow.

Bogdan said all existing F-35s would have to be upgraded to be fully combat capable . Verbum sapienti sat est.

As for F-35 vs F-22, sorry but no. F-35 has almost no chance whatsoever . It has smaller radar, larger RCS , it is slower, could not climb or turn with F-22, it has no side bays for IR missiles etc ... Only advantage it has is IRST, but somewhere along the road F-22 would be upgraded with those .

At the present moment, only fighter aircraft that would have some chance against F-22 are Mig-31 BM , owning to its huge radar with L-band elements , and perhaps Su-30 and Su-35 . Indeed, Malaysian Su-30 MKM did well in close combat against F-22 during Cope Taufan exercise (Su-30 was better in horizontal, F-22 in vertical maneuvers ) . Theoretically, they could be vectored towards F-22 to allow at least some of them to merge . As for aircraft like Rafale and Typhoon , according to Indian sources ( India tested them both during MMRCA competition) they could not keep up with Su-30 MKI , therefore I doubt they stand much chance against Raptor .

 

[Air Force Brat]

Bogdan said all existing F-35s would have to be upgraded to be fully combat capable . Verbum sapienti sat est.

As for F-35 vs F-22, sorry but no. F-35 has almost no chance whatsoever . It has smaller radar, larger RCS , it is slower, could not climb or turn with F-22, it has no side bays for IR missiles etc ... Only advantage it has is IRST, but somewhere along the road F-22 would be upgraded with those .

At the present moment, only fighter aircraft that would have some chance against F-22 are Mig-31 BM , owning to its huge radar with L-band elements , and perhaps Su-30 and Su-35 . Indeed, Malaysian Su-30 MKM did well in close combat against F-22 during Cope Taufan exercise (Su-30 was better in horizontal, F-22 in vertical maneuvers ) . Theoretically, they could be vectored towards F-22 to allow at least some of them to merge . As for aircraft like Rafale and Typhoon , according to Indian sources ( India tested them both during MMRCA competition) they could not keep up with Su-30 MKI , therefore I doubt they stand much chance against Raptor .

You read lots, but your comprehension? my statement, "the LRIP birds will need some upgrades and retrofits to meet their service life expectations" now that is verbatim.

you on the other hand casually stated that they were "obsolete" that my friend is far off the mark of what Chris Bogdan said about the F-35 of which he is the program director!

the rest of your observations about the Mig 31 are completely off the mark, how will they vector them to something they can't see??? and those big old Radar arrays will be down before the F-22s are anywhere near them, I promise, LOL! those things are huge, and they do emit, once they are on, they are dead!

 

[thunderchief]

You read lots, but your comprehension? my statement, "the LRIP birds will need some upgrades and retrofits to meet their service life expectations" now that is verbatim.

you on the other hand casually stated that they were "obsolete" that my friend is far off the mark of what Chris Bogdan said about the F-35 of which he is the program director!

the rest of your observations about the Mig 31 are completely off the mark, how will they vector them to something they can't see??? and those big old Radar arrays will be down before the F-22s are anywhere near them, I promise, LOL! those things are huge, and they do emit, once they are on, they are dead!

I suggest we continue this discussion in F-35 thread

Today there are 126 F-35s of various models in service (plus 19 test aircraft); by the end of 2019, that will skyrocket to 493. “When we have those 493 airplanes out in the field in 2019, guess how many of them will be in what I consider to be the right configuration?” Bogdan asked the ComDef conference here. “Not. A. One. Every one of the airplanes coming off the production line today and coming off the production line for the next two and a half years, plus all the airplanes we’ve built already, will need some form of modification to get them up to the full capability that we promised the warfighter. That is a massive undertaking..”

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If plane needs upgrades , then it could be said it is becoming somewhat obsolete in present form .

MiG-31 radar :

The Zaslon is a

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radar with a

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(PESA) antenna and digital signal processing. The antenna used by the Zaslon is actually a multi-channel system comprising two separate electronically controlled arrays, an

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radar with 1700 emitters and a

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transponder with 64 emitters brought together into a single antenna

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MiG-31 BM has this radar upgraded . L-band elements have their purpose, and that is precisely to see stealth aircraft . Therefore, they do have some chance to fire at them from relatively long range and then rapidly depart. That doesn't mean Mig-31 is equally capable as F-22, just that it is not toothless .

As for other aircraft, they could be vectored to close range by modern EAW radars that are not big, clumsy and immobile like they use to be . Both Russia and China have invested heavily in anti-stealth detection technology . That is a topic for itself but this link is quite useful:

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[Jeff Head]

Chief, when the US went to the concurrent testing model they KNEW that the initial planes would have to be upgraded to the later block software and other enhancements.

This is not news, and it is not a knock on the aircraft. You may knock the program of concurrent testing and many do...but I believe it will prove out in the long run because it is getting a lot of aircraft built and tested at a time when the US needs to rapidly modernize its force, particularly with the older F-16s.

I have said it before and will say it again. Despite whatever birthing pains...and when you are making a fifth generation stealth aircraft with new concepts of sensor fusion THERE ARE GOING TO BE BORTHING PAINS...the F=35 is going to be the most widely used, most highly produced, and most capable 5th generation designed strike fighter on the planet.

Count on it...and watch it happen.

All the nay-saying and detractors aside, the program (as Equation says) is coming forward.

Of course building 5th gen JSFs is the choice over upgraded F-15s.

At the same time, the US should continue to upgrade its F-15 force...as it is doing. I would recommend and hope a new admin does the Boeing F-15 C2040 program to modernize and extend the entire F-15 force.

But that does not mean you supplant F-35 purchases with such an upgrade. It only means you compliment those purchases.

US detractors and opponents would love to see ther F-35 curtailed...they fear it. But it is not going to happen.

 

[kwaigonegin]

I believe there are two upgrade tracks for the F-15's. This appropriation I suspect pertains to the upgrade of the F-15C/D to APG-63(V)3 AESA radars.

There is another one for the F-15E to APG-82(V)1 AESA radar.

You be right Brumby.. there are currently 2 AESA upgrade paths for the F-15.. One for the Charlie and Delta call the 2040C upgrade and the other known as the (DoD) F-15E Radar Modernization Program (RMP) for the Strike Eagle.

The 2040 moniker came about because the upgrade is intended to make the Eagles serve until at least 2040.
Many F-15Cs are already receiving the APG-63(V) 3 AESA, but the upgrade program will also add the ADCP II, EPAWSS (replaces the current Tactical Electronic Warfare System (TEWS), Mode 5 IFF, Boeing Talon HATE datalink/netowkr system which is basically the marriage of Intra Flight Data Link (IFDL) and the Multifunctional Information Distribution System-JTRS ( MIDS-J) and the Eagles will also receive a new more capable long-wave infrared search and track (IRST) however the biggest difference at least externally is the inclusion of 'quad pack' launch rails which will double AAMs from 8 to 16 and the addition of comformal fuel tanks. The Quad packs allows up to 16 AIM120D AMRAAMS.

Once the '2040C' upgrade is completed, it will be the most lethal F15 ever built.. and outside of stealth characteristics, will be even more lethal than the Silent Eagle proposed to SK a few years ago.

 

[Jeff Head]

The Quad packs allows up to 16 AIM120D AMRAAMS.

Once the '2040C' upgrade is completed, it will be the most lethal F15 ever built.. and outside of stealth characteristics, will be even more lethal than the Silent Eagle proposed to SK a few years ago.

Yes, the F-15 2040C will be an awesome aircraft.

And that path is an upgrade path for all of the F-15Cs the USAF has.

IMHO...no brainer.

See:

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F-15C/D Album on Flickr[/URL]

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A bunch (30) high res photos there also of the USAF 493rd Grim Reapers which are forward deployed to England. Here's a few:











Gotta love that one arm patch.

I am sure their counterparts on the other side have similar reminders.