Europe Refugee Crisis

delft

Brigadier
any comments, delft?

a moment ago I became aware of the article
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but I'm dependent on its Czech (or google) translation, so just the title
"Have only ten per cent of the refugees controlled"
and one sentence:
"According to estimates of GdP only around 25 to 30 percent of those entering from Austria individuals carry a passport or other proof of identity with them."

could it freaking true??
I began reading but was sidetracked by domestic matters. I hope to resume soon.
Most refugees must be rather wealthy, at least at the time they start out, and mostly well educated because otherwise they wouldn't reach Europe, not even with the help of Turkey. A recent recalculation of the prospects of the British economy showed a considerable gain in the next few years due to an assumed large influx of refugees. For Germany with its shrinking population the influx must be very advantageous even if it gives some temporary troubles.
 

delft

Brigadier
Concerning the article from Die Welt, it is a waste of effort to send terrorists with the refugees. There are plenty of disaffected Muslims who were born in Western countries and are much better placed to act as terrorists as proven by the terrible things that have happened in Western Europe and US. Any import terrorist will have to find his bearings, learn to live here and then prepare for action. The article is really rather nonsensical.
 
... A recent recalculation of the prospects of the British economy showed a considerable gain in the next few years due to an assumed large influx of refugees. ...
... delft maybe you should consider what's described in kinda eye opener:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/europe-refugee-crisis.t7856/page-20#post-377932
if you had in mind what's described in
I'm not getting this:
Osborne reliant on rising immigration levels to achieve budget surplus

source:
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... but maybe I just misunderstood you (again :)
 
Jura, the article is indeed quoting a leading member to the union of the police, stating (at the height of the influx in late summer / autumn I think) a mere 10% of people entering were properly registered, i.e. fingerprints taken and so on. (I think there were up to around 10.000 people a day)
thanks Scratch, I admit I had been cursing while finishing my post you quoted

Since November, the total number of immigrants has been decreasing rather sharply which should lessen the issue. However, since there were absolutely no resources available to track those unaccounted for, noone can really tell were a large amount of the people went. There are additional controlls in the refugee camps and regularly unregistered ones pop up.
I found a chart with numbers:
DWO-IP-Fluechtlinge-Deutschland-1.jpg
within
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I guess it's also rather common practice to have lost your passport, because you can not be sent back anywhere, and authorities are in a much more difficult position to proof your from a country were there's likely no proper reason to be a refugee.

yeah but why let the individual without it enter the country then

Also I guess quiet a few are on the move with fake passports, i.e. stolen syrian blanks.

For 2016, the 16 german states calculate with a cost of €17Billion for provision of the refugees, based on 800.000 people. Although we know we're most likely well beyond one million.
... and I've read still there are regions, in the former German "Democratic" Republic area, with ten plus percent unemployment rate ... not my business, anyway, will just add more thing: twenty years ago I very briefly worked in Germany and at that time five million German people were jobless (sorry if this figure is inaccurate, but that's what I remember), so I met local, educated people doing the work, which was not well-paid. I hope the German economy will remain strong as it is now.
 

delft

Brigadier

Scratch

Captain
I didn't read The Guardian, but I got it from BBC. :)
Most refugees are well educated and when they have their children with them they will be even more eager to work. But can the British and German economies provide the jobs?

thanks Scratch, I admit I had been cursing while finishing my post you quoted
... and I've read still there are regions, in the former German "Democratic" Republic area, with ten plus percent unemployment rate ... not my business, anyway, will just add more thing: twenty years ago I very briefly worked in Germany and at that time five million German people were jobless (sorry if this figure is inaccurate, but that's what I remember), so I met local, educated people doing the work, which was not well-paid. I hope the German economy will remain strong as it is now.


I really don't know what to make of the asserted education level of the vast majority. In my personal feeling it swings back and forth between good an poor.
Many of the refugees are certainly not wholly uneducated. And a few month back there was a rather optimistic view there is a large pool of skilled workers arriving, in support of the economy. Now that optimism has vanished a bit. And I guess rightfully so. The "syrian doctor" that was the figurhead of the refugees here in Germany for some time, is truely not the norm, as some leading politicans were eventually forced to concede. And over the last weeks the whole thing shifted to integrating the majoriy of refugees into the "low skilled end" of the job market. Besides the question of their actuall education, there's the issue of what can they proof to have, and what is really accepted as a certificate in Germany. Or elsewhere in Europe. As there's quiet a few jobs in society I wouldn't want to trust in somebody's word alone.
And then there's of course the languge. There is really a very mixed picture of how much impetus immigrants show especially in getting acquainted with the languge.

As Jura indicated, about ten years ago, when Germany was the sick man of Europe, there were close to 5 million listed unemployed. It then came down to stagnate just under 3 million for 4 years now. Although statistics may be a bit different now. So the additional three quarter million people maybe that would be able to work out of the 1,000,000 + refugees this year, is mostly going to compete with those.
Industry is rather widely optimistic as I said already. Yet for a year now we do have a minimum wage in Germany. It's €8,50. And contrary to what many thought, it did apparently not have that great of an impact on jobs. Unemployment didn't generally rise. However, from those industry people who are happy about the new workers come the calls now to of course exempt those from the minimum wage.
That, in my mind, creates a competition between migrants and residents that would be unaccaptable.

If there was decisive action and management of the issue it could perhaps even work, I guess. In financial / economic terms. Then there's of course also the cultural price. And that worthiness is yet another wholly different issue.

At this point, I believe it can go one of two ways, either rather well, or really bad. However, the "rather well" would require decisive action & management of the issue which I do not see right know.


yeah but why let the individual without it [passport] enter the country then

I guess it was primarily a "we don't want bad pictures of refugees being rejeted or held in camps at the border" decision.
 

delft

Brigadier
In the Netherlands we mostly keep people in "centra" to get rid of them again and to deny them the chance to learn the language until the have somehow been given the right to stay. The whole is extremely expensive and inefficient and causes considerable mental damage to the refugees ( depression ). The current influx might prove to be too large for this mismanagement but they are sure to make a mess of it somehow.
 
Dec 21, 2015
while Mrs. Merkel is waiting for the Nobel Peace Price
...
Merkel urges Germans to see refugee arrivals as 'an opportunity' in new year address
Chancellor says in televised address: ‘countries have always benefited from successful immigration, both economically and socially’

Chancellor
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in her new year address on Thursday asked Germans to see refugee arrivals as “an opportunity for tomorrow” and urged doubters not to follow racist hate-mongers.

The past year – when the country took in more than a
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– had been unusually challenging, she said in a pre-released text of the speech, also bracing Germans for more hardships ahead.

But she stressed that in the end it would all be worth it because “countries have always benefited from successful immigration, both economically and socially”.

With a view to right-wing populists and xenophobic street rallies, she said “It’s important we don’t allow ourselves to be divided.”

“It is crucial not to follow those who, with coldness or even hatred in their hearts, lay a sole claim to what it means to be German and seek to exclude others.”

Merkel has earned both praise and criticism at home and abroad for her decision to open
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to a record wave of refugees, about half from war-torn Syria.

Germany took in almost 1.1 million asylum seekers this year, five times 2014’s total, the Säechsische Zeitung regional daily reported on Wednesday citing unpublished official figures.

Merkel, faced with opposition in her conservative camp and popular concerns about the influx, has vowed steps to
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.

Her plan involves convincing other European Union members to take in more refugees, so far with
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, and an EU deal with gateway country Turkey to better protect its borders.

Merkel said “there has rarely been a year in which we were challenged so much to follow up our words with deeds”.

She thanked volunteers and police, soldiers and administrators for their “outstanding” accomplishments and “doing far, far more than their duty”.

Looking to 2016, she said: “There is no question that the influx of so many people will keep demanding much of us. It will take time, effort and money.”

But Merkel recalled that Germany had mastered past challenges such as reunification a quarter of a century ago and benefitted from a “robust and innovative” economy.

“I am convinced that, handled properly, today’s great task presented by the influx and the integration of so many people is an opportunity for tomorrow,” she said.

She urged Germans to be “self-confident and free, humanitarian and open to the world”.

Amid the world’s greatest refugee wave since the second world war, she said, “It goes without saying that we help and accommodate people who seek safe haven with us.”

The speech will be broadcast at 6.15pm GMT on ZDF public television and then online with English and Arabic subtitles on
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and
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.
source:
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video inside
Anti-migrant protest turns violent as German welcome cools
Riot police broke up far-right protesters in Cologne on Saturday as they marched against Germany's open-door migration policy after asylum seekers were identified as suspects in assaults on women on New Year's Eve.

The attacks, ranging from sexual molestation to theft, shocked Germany, which took in 1.1 million migrants and refugees in 2015 under asylum laws championed by Chancellor Angela Merkel, despite fervent opposition.

Shortly before Saturday's protest began, Merkel hardened her stance toward migrants, promising expulsion for criminals and a reduction in migrant numbers over the longer term to Germany.

Police said around 1,700 people attended the rally organized by the far-right anti-Islam PEGIDA movement, which has seized on the alleged involvement of migrants in the Cologne attacks as proof Merkel's policy is flawed.

Demonstrators, some of whom bore tattoos with far-right symbols such as a skull in a German soldier's helmet, had chanted "Merkel must go" and "this is the march of the national resistance". "Rapefugees not welcome," one banner read.

A police spokesman said roughly half of those at the PEGIDA protest were from the 'hooligan scene'. Some in the crowd threw bottles and fire crackers at officers, and riot police used water canon to disperse the protesters.

Two people were injured in the clash, and police detained a number of demonstrators, a Reuters witness said.

PEGIDA, or Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West, almost fizzled out last year when its leader resigned after a photo was published of him posing as Adolf Hitler.

But its ranks have swelled as resentment spread of Merkel's welcoming stance to refugees.

In all, about 1,700 police officers were on the streets of Cologne, dwarfing the number on duty during the chaotic scenes of New Year's Eve when at least 120 women were robbed or sexually molested.

"The events on New Year's Eve led to a lot of emotion," said a police spokesman. "We had feared that emotions would boil over."

About 1,300 people attended a rival left-wing protest in Cologne, according to police.

"No means no. Keep away from our bodies," read one sign held by one of the demonstrators, most of them women.

'WE CAN DO IT'


Merkel's remarks on Saturday were in stark contrast to her earlier optimism about the influx to Germany, which has taken in far more migrants than any other European country.

Her 'we can do it' slogan irritated many Germans, uneasy about the mass arrivals.

"The right to asylum can be lost if someone is convicted, on probation or jailed," Merkel said after a meeting of the leadership of her Christian Democrats (CDU) party that was overshadowed by the attacks in Cologne and other cities.

"Serial offenders who repeatedly rob or repeatedly affront women must feel the full force of the law," Merkel told journalists in Mainz.

Under German law, asylum seekers are now typically only deported if they have been sentenced to at least three years in prison, and providing their lives are not at risk at home.

Merkel's conservative party said it wanted to reduce and control migration to Germany, and send those who had been refused asylum home promptly. Such a move would require a change to German law.

"Cologne changed everything," Volker Bouffier, one of the conservative party's most senior members, told the meeting, according to people present.

Earlier in the week, German federal police said they had identified 32 people who were suspected of playing a role in the attacks on women on Cologne, 22 of whom were in the process of seeking asylum in Germany.

They documented 76 criminal acts, most of them involving some form of theft, and seven linked to sexual molestation.

Of the suspects, nine were Algerian, eight Moroccan, five
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ian and four Syrian. Three German citizens, an Iraqi, a Serb and a U.S. citizen were also identified.

Similar assaults happened in other cities such as Frankfurt.
source:
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from the photo-gallery inside it:
r

A person holds a protest sign reading 'Lying politicians need lying press' prior to a demonstration by anti-immigration right-wing movement PEGIDA (Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West) in Cologne, Germany, January 9, 2016.
 
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