Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

s002wjh

Junior Member
The missile are already paid for.

at 1.X million a pop, 100 tomahawks are great buy, in that even if 1 airplane with a pilot is shot down it would easily cause more than 100 million (pilot + Jet + rescue cost + political backlash).

But.

US and Co. is not the only country in the world with Long Range LACMs. ;)

And.

If in some scenario some one is dumb enough to engage china in a conventional missiles shoot out in western pacific, I put my money on China to came out on top. scared and bruised may be, but came on top in the end.

not sure how china is came out on top since those tomhawk will fired from ships and sub toward a LAND target. china has to detect those ship, and use only Anti-ship missile(which has less range)
 

vesicles

Colonel
Well not really, as the tomahawk attacks don't need to be sustained. Apparently, 110 were enough to cripple Libya's air defences, allowing the French to operate attack jets.

No it doesn't, but the question is, if it took 110 Tomahawks to finish off Libya's air defense, how many would be needed to cripple China's air defense? My feeling is that it would need a lot more than 100 to even have any effect on China's thick air defense network on the East coast, let alone the entire China.

In the case of Libya, Libya had no ability to counter attack and was allowing the attacking ships to launch missiles at will, China won't sit there and let itself be hit by missiles. I don't think any country on this planet can withstand missiles attacks by only passively sitting there. While the first round of Tomahawks is launched and is targeting only one region of China, the other areas of China will mount counter attacks against the opposing forces, causing the attack to be interrupted at the very least.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
not sure how china is came out on top since those tomhawk will fired from ships and sub toward a LAND target. china has to detect those ship, and use only Anti-ship missile(which has less range)


geography is on chinese side.

Chinese launchers are mobile. and has less signiture.

logisitical nodes on the op-side is concentrated. take those out and you make a significant dent in war-generating capability. reload in Washington state/Hawaii instead of reloading in Guam.

and why Anti-Shipping missiles will have less range?

sub is another story.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
While PLA is much stronger than the Libyan army and can deter surface combatants to keep a distance from the mainland initially, Tomahawk has a range of 1000km+, can PLA be a threat to a modern fleet, most likely a CVBG, 1000km+ from the mainland?

The PLA most certainly can threaten a modern fleet over a thousand miles from the Chinese coast, if they can find them. If the PLA can solve the key issue of being able to find hostile warships that far out, then they most certainly can launch a saturation attack capable of taking out even USN carrier battle groups.

Hostile subs - yeah that's a real problem, probably will remain a problem for quite some time, and some very quiet subs carry loads of Tomahawks.

Only the few SSGNs are they real threat with regards to Tomahawks. These can get their missiles closer than surface ships and so give the PLA less time to react. However, considering the size of China and the assets available, if the USN launched all their SSGN missile complement, chances are only a handful of those missiles will reach their intended targets.

Tomahawks are used to achieve air superiority by taking out air defenses and key assets, they are quite often used before air superiority is achieved, and it has proven itself over and over again.

Proven itself against adversaries with absolutely no chance of successfully defending themselves.

How can the likes of J7 be an effective measure to counter mass cruise missile attacks? Shoot them using PL-9/PL-10??

PL9s and PL10s would be a waste on tomahawks. These are massive subsonic missiles flying in straight lines with zero self defense capabilities. They are probably easier to shoot down than target drones or towed targets.

Cruise missiles like tomahawks are optimized against ground based radars and defense by exploiting terrain to avoid radar detection from ground based radars. With AWACS, especially AESA AWACS, and with the tomahawks coming in over the sea with no terrain to hide behind, they would be sitting ducks and it would end up as a massive turkey shoot if anyone tired to gain air superiority over China with just tomahawks. You will run out of tomahawks long before the PLA's defenses or capabilities are degraded in any meaningful way.

Point defense systems: Tomahawks will probably be spotted by radars (some latest cruise missiles have stealth features, but let's not make it too hard for China, for now...) - PLA's latest SAMs (not the long range ones) and AAA could be effective to a certain extent - but they can only defend a small area, and we know Tomahawk users use the missiles generously. Can the point defense systems handle several Tomahawks at the same time? 5 missiles coming in short intervals, if PLA could intercept 80% (that's quite impressive...), 1 still hits the radar station and will weaken/disable the SAMs, and it gets easier to penetrate the air defense.

THawks are only good against fixed targets. As has already been pointed out, the PLA prefers mobile radars. THawks will not be used against SAM radars.

What more, Chinese SAMs and radars work together with each other as well as AAA. You have long range missiles like the S300 and HQ9 protected by medium/short range missiles like the HQ7 and Tor, as well as AAA. Its going to take a hell of a lot more than 5 THawks to take out a PLA SAM radar even if you knew where to aim those THawks at.

Other high value targets like airfields and munitions dumps/factors would likely have CIWS like the LD2000 deployed. That is a naval grade CIWS designed to shoot down multiple cruise missiles exactly like the THawk within a very short time frame.

The PLA also has a massive range of MANPAD carrying vehicles designed specifically to take out cruise missiles and attack helos.

Speaking of targeting, THawks are highly dependent on GPS, especially for use at the edge of their range envelope. Even if we exclude the possibility of the PLA simply taking out those GPS sats, the Chinese should easily have the capability to heavily jam GPS signals when they want. Even if they cannot shut down the system that way, they should be able to degrade it.

Long-range SAMs - if they are effective against cruise missiles, how many S-300, S-300PMU and HQ-9 China can deploy in a certain area? And we do roughly know where they are currently deployed - what about those vast areas with coverage? And are they really effective against cruise missiles? I hope someone knows.

The top end missiles would likely be saved for higher value targets, or maybe to shoot down the odd cruise missile that slipped through and is threatening a really high value target.

CIWS is effective against slow cruise missiles, however we don't see a lot in the army. Key assets including radar stations and SAM batteries need to have adequate CIWS protection.

There is the LD2000, and modern AAA can be pretty close if not better than traditional 20/30mm CIWS with newer guns, radar guidance and smart munitions. All of which China is known to have or is in advanced testing of.

And...we haven't considered stealth fighters and stealth bombers that can take the lead in air strikes.

The only stealth fighter in operational deployment anywhere now or in the near future is the F22. Not only will it struggle to even reach China from US bases even with tanker support, it can only carry two bombs, at the cost of the number of AA missiles it can carry. If the USAF is desperate enough to try using F22s as a leading penetrating bomber, they lost the war before a shot was fired.

The B2 is a real bomber, but it would be a massive risk to send them in against a fully functioning integrated modern air defense network with a massive modern fighter force backing up the ground based stuff.

The B2 only reduced radar detection range, it is not invisible to radar. Get a radar close enough, and it will show up. What more, the B2 is optimized against ground based radars. How stealthy it is from the air is debatable, especially against powerful AESAs of AWACS specially designed to hunt small RCS targets.

The B2s are so expensive, rare and have such symbolism that they will only be deployed when there is an extremely low risk of them being shot down. They will only be sent in once the PLA's defenses have been seriously worn down and significantly degraded. But that's going to be a very hard and costly thing to do purely on the military side, and only the US has a realistic chance of doing it at all. Even then it will cost the US dear to do so.
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Let's leave the sophistication of weapon systems alone and only consider the intangibles. Fighting a country the size of China is so much different than fighting a country the size of Libya. A couple of strikes would be needed to secure the air space in Libya. China, however, is completely different. Even IF (that's a big IF) the coastal areas are completely penetrated, China still has the vast interior areas. Those airbases and strategic facilities located in the central, Western, Northern and Southern parts of China would be safe. These facilities can continuously supply fighters, AAA, missiles, etc. to the East without having to worry too much about being attacked. The supply line would be a lot more efficient than the attacking navy, which needs to be supplied on the sea. This supply line would be completely exposed.

Assuming some navy is using Tomahawk to attack China's Eastern coast from 1000 km away. It should be easy to assume that China's air defense is thick enough that they would need a huge number of missiles to penetrate the defense. So the said navy would have to dedicate the majority of their missiles to attack targets in a small area. While those missiles are traveling to their targets in Eastern China, PLA fighters and missiles in other areas in China would immediately mount counter attacks against ships and subs of the attacking navy. Yes, the subs are hard to detect, but once they launch their missiles, their positions are completely exposed. Yes, there is a possibility that the attacking navy may be able to penetrate China's air defense on the East coast and destroy a few targets, but at the same time, the attacking navy will also be under attack by China's air force and navy from other areas. China is simply too vast for the kind of tactics used by NATO to attack Libya to work.

Another factor is the finance. Each Tomahawk costs a lot of money (hundreds of millions?? I'm totally guessing here...). They would need to use less than 100 to completely finish off Libya. How many do you think they would need to penetrate China's air defense on the East coast, let alone the entire China? A lot more than 100, I would guess. Can any economy support this kind of usage?

The strategies developed in fighting all the recent wars by the West is useless in fighting China, IMHO...

The U.S. doesn't plan on getting into a Symmetrical war where both sides have "equal" capabilities (like China.) If I wanted to destroy Chinese strategic radars, I wouldn't use Tomahawks, I'd use JASSMs, which has a range of over 900 km, but includes Stealth capabilities (RAM, low-altitude TERCOM, etc). I really am not sure where you got that "millions of dollars" figures from, a single Tomahawk costs about $500,000-$1,000,000. A Cruise Missile sub (which we have 4) can carry about 100 Tomahawks each.



The B2 is a real bomber, but it would be a massive risk to send them in against a fully functioning integrated modern air defense network with a massive modern fighter force backing up the ground based stuff.

War is about risk, no risk no victory.

The B2 only reduced radar detection range, it is not invisible to radar. Get a radar close enough, and it will show up. What more, the B2 is optimized against ground based radars. How stealthy it is from the air is debatable, especially against powerful AESAs of AWACS specially designed to hunt small RCS targets.

Actually, the B-2 is stealthier than the F-22. The F-22 is vulnerable to low-band radars, but because the B-2 actually has such a large size (and something I forgot relating to that size), the B-2 then becomes invulnerable to those radars that the F-22 is. The AESAs on AWACS would not be able to track a B-2 until a distance of 100 km.

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The B2s are so expensive, rare and have such symbolism that they will only be deployed when there is an extremely low risk of them being shot down. They will only be sent in once the PLA's defenses have been seriously worn down and significantly degraded. But that's going to be a very hard and costly thing to do purely on the military side, and only the US has a realistic chance of doing it at all. Even then it will cost the US dear to do so.

I'd disagree. We'd send in the B-2's when strategic PLA radars have been neutralized by long range high-stealth cruise missiles. At that point, the PLA would need a seriously large Airborne sensor net to even start to track the B-2, but it would be expected that F-22s fitted for the Air Dominance role would accompany the B-2 to neutralize any strategic airborne targets like AWACS.
 
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MastanKhan

Junior Member
Ironsightsniper,

Thank you for the post----even thought china is a big country---the u s is programmed to fight for this kind of war more so than the libyan war--even though they have been well trained in afghanistan by now.

Actually a 100 cruise missile strike on china will be maybe 1000----100000 times more devastating to china than libya----. In libya what it might do----destroy another bedouin camp and kill some camels----this same missile will take take out a strategic target worth tons more with more strategic importance and no replacement----.

Have you people ever thought about it that way-----.

The american submersibles will destroy china----china has no answer for the american subs-----leave alone the air strikes----.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Ironsightsniper,

Thank you for the post----even thought china is a big country---the u s is programmed to fight for this kind of war more so than the libyan war--even though they have been well trained in afghanistan by now.

Actually a 100 cruise missile strike on china will be maybe 1000----100000 times more devastating to china than libya----. In libya what it might do----destroy another bedouin camp and kill some camels----this same missile will take take out a strategic target worth tons more with more strategic importance and no replacement----.

Have you people ever thought about it that way-----.

The american submersibles will destroy china----china has no answer for the american subs-----leave alone the air strikes----.

Don't think so. China will not only be trying to defend itself when attacked. The best strategy of defence is to attack the enemy's base whether it be carrier/sea based or land based. The enemy's submarines still have to get pass China's fleet of 60 -70 submarines and the thousands of sea-bed mines layed along battle lines. Tomahawk missiles is only good for fixed targets but not mobile targets and have to depend largely on intelligence gathering which is where ASAT weapons come into play.
 
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BRLG

New Member
Ironsightsniper,

Thank you for the post----even thought china is a big country---the u s is programmed to fight for this kind of war more so than the libyan war--even though they have been well trained in afghanistan by now.

Actually a 100 cruise missile strike on china will be maybe 1000----100000 times more devastating to china than libya----. In libya what it might do----destroy another bedouin camp and kill some camels----this same missile will take take out a strategic target worth tons more with more strategic importance and no replacement----.

Have you people ever thought about it that way-----.

The american submersibles will destroy china----china has no answer for the american subs-----leave alone the air strikes----.

The above comparisons are rather moot, because China doesn't have to respond in kind at all. In addition to Quickie's response, once a US attack were launched onto Chinese soil, whether it be Tomahawks or B-2's, all of the US military bases in Asia would become fair targets for Chinese MRBMs. After the initial wave of strikes of let's say, a few hundred Tomahawks and multi-sorties of B2's, which is far from enough to cripple PLAAF (for example, more than 40 super-hardened airbases protected under mountains all over China), US logistics would be severely broken when most of the US military bases in Asia are destroyed. From then on, Tomahawks would have to be reloaded from continental US and B-2's would no longer be spearheaded by F-22's. At the meantime, PLAAF would have lots of time to regroup and adjust deployment as necessary. It would develop into an extended confrontation that the US cannot afford. China as yet, may not be able to defeat USN and USAF upfront, but she can certainly drag the US down to Armageddon. (Any further escalations to nukes can refer to the other thread about MAD scenarios.)
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
The above comparisons are rather moot, because China doesn't have to respond in kind at all. In addition to Quickie's response, once a US attack were launched onto Chinese soil, whether it be Tomahawks or B-2's, all of the US military bases in Asia would become fair targets for Chinese MRBMs. After the initial wave of strikes of let's say, a few hundred Tomahawks and multi-sorties of B2's, which is far from enough to cripple PLAAF (for example, more than 40 super-hardened airbases protected under mountains all over China), US logistics would be severely broken when most of the US military bases in Asia are destroyed. From then on, Tomahawks would have to be reloaded from continental US and B-2's would no longer be spearheaded by F-22's. At the meantime, PLAAF would have lots of time to regroup and adjust deployment as necessary. It would develop into an extended confrontation that the US cannot afford. China as yet, may not be able to defeat USN and USAF upfront, but she can certainly drag the US down to Armageddon. (Any further escalations to nukes can refer to the other thread about MAD scenarios.)

ballistic missile strike against US base in asia is fairly easy to repair(its not accurate as cruise missile, runway can be repair in 24hr), unless china can destroy the harden bunker/plane in guam, japan, korea and other bases(well i just dont see how is that possible with current plaaf) on top that you gonna have several carrier group surrounding china, then there is tomhawk, +B2 etc. china don't have the ability to complete destroy US bases on foreign soil, especially when US is at war with china.

as for the sub, most chinese sub are joke, its loud and outdate, there is only handful are relative quite. US military is very adapt to large conventional warfair, thanks to cold war.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
ballistic missile strike against US base in asia is fairly easy to repair(its not accurate as cruise missile, runway can be repair in 24hr), unless china can destroy the harden bunker/plane in guam, japan, korea and other bases(well i just dont see how is that possible with current plaaf) on top that you gonna have several carrier group surrounding china, then there is tomhawk, +B2 etc. china don't have the ability to complete destroy US bases on foreign soil, especially when US is at war with china.

as for the sub, most chinese sub are joke, its loud and outdate, there is only handful are relative quite. US military is very adapt to large conventional warfair, thanks to cold war.

It's interesting that a conversation about the effectiveness of air defence has turned into the quality of Chinese subs. It really shows just how interconnected all those elements are.

In that vein, I would submit that it is not so easy to repair US bases in Asia as you think. Neither Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan are known as industrial centers, their economy being based on high technology and service sectors. In the event of a massive Chinese missile attack against those US bases, how much resources do you think they can bring to bear in repairing those bases and keeping them functional?

Indeed, now we come to questions of logistics and supply. Any full-scale American attack on China will have to overcome huge logistical problems. China is a huge country with the worlds biggest manufacturing capabilities and some of the worlds largest reserves of natural resources. There is no way Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan can keep up with China in terms of war effort. That means the US is going to have to ship in supplies from continental US in order to make up the difference.
 
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