East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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Blitzo

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Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

The crux of this whole issue is two fold:

1) The ADIZ itself and the use of it to defend the Chinese main land or holdings against aggressive posture flights approaching them. With todays aircraft and their speed, clearly seeing something approaching if possible at some distance gives the nation time to respond, warn off the approaching aircraft, and then intercept it if necessary. This is relative common practice, as is the practice of some nations to test that response from time to time.

2) The Island dispute. In this issue, which is really the focal point, the PRC is looking to establish more influence and control in the area around the islands. The Japanese have long administered those islands, and have conducted maritime patrol flights over and around them. They intend to continue to do this. They most definitely will not provide flight plans or transponder information to the Chinese regarding them. The Japanese view such a situation as an escalation away from the current status quo, as does the US>

The US has now tested the ADIZ with military aircraft flying over the island. There was no response. This does not mean that the Chinese now, or in the future will not respond, but it does set a precedent that I fully expect the JMSDF will now also test.

If the Chinese respond against the JMSDF, I expect it to be tense the first time or two and hopefully emotions and knee jerk reactions will not intercede and you will have Chinese military aircraft watching and taking pictures of Japanese military aircraft, and vice versa. If that holds, then a new status quo will develop as both nations use their military aircraft to fly over the islands.

The only way to prevent that from becoming the new status quo is either for the PRC to use military force against Japan to keep their aircraft from flying there. I do not expect, short of a severe miscalculation, for that to happen. At this point it is not the PRC intent (I believe) to drive the Japanese away from there, just to establish themselves with parity there.

The only way the Japanese can prevent that from happening, is to do likewise. I also do not expect that to happen. I do expect the Japanese will scramble their F-15Js should PLAAF or PLAN J-10s or J-15s intercept their maritime aircraft. This hopefully will be enough "show of force," to satisfy both sides. I do not think either sides wants, or is pushing for, a shooting war.

That being the case, at this time, I really do not see a way for the Japanese to prevent this new status quo from taking effect.


That's effectively what I predict as well Jeff, thanks for saying it so succintly.

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You know, the more I think about this, the more I wonder why China wanted an ADIZ in the first place.
I don't mean that in an arrogant way. Obviously China faces many regional threats and an ADIZ is long over due. But why an ADIZ over the disputed islands as well? That will obviously lead to an increase in risky encoutners that may lead to incidents.

China knows this, and they also know that starting a limited shooting war isn't in their interest.

So I can't help but wonder if this is the first chip in their maneuver to make the Japanese come to the negotiating table.
I've read that China has been creating overtures to Japan to negotiate since last year, but after Japan bought the islands effectively Japan rebuffed every attempt to talk on the subject. (I think this was china daily, I can't remember)

Anyway, an ADIZ overlap over the islands means both sides will hopefully want to sit down and at least talk about some risk reduction measures. That would be the first step to negotiation, and I bet China is hoping that their new bargaining chips will draw Japan back to the negotiating table regarding the disputed islands.


Of course Japan could continue to hold onto their claim and just live out the mutual phototaking of JASDF and PLAAF, heightening tensions for everyone. I expect they would also seek even more rigorously to find nations to build an anti-China alliance as well. Of course that will only result in further tensions in the region.


It's a shame to think this entire debacle is about three bare rocks (and of course over a century of bloodshed and bad history). I think negotiations is the best route for all.
 

latenlazy

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Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

That's effectively what I predict as well Jeff, thanks for saying it so succintly.

---


You know, the more I think about this, the more I wonder why China wanted an ADIZ in the first place.
I don't mean that in an arrogant way. Obviously China faces many regional threats and an ADIZ is long over due. But why an ADIZ over the disputed islands as well? That will obviously lead to an increase in risky encoutners that may lead to incidents.

China knows this, and they also know that starting a limited shooting war isn't in their interest.

So I can't help but wonder if this is the first chip in their maneuver to make the Japanese come to the negotiating table.
I've read that China has been creating overtures to Japan to negotiate since last year, but after Japan bought the islands effectively Japan rebuffed every attempt to talk on the subject. (I think this was china daily, I can't remember)

Anyway, an ADIZ overlap over the islands means both sides will hopefully want to sit down and at least talk about some risk reduction measures. That would be the first step to negotiation, and I bet China is hoping that their new bargaining chips will draw Japan back to the negotiating table regarding the disputed islands.


Of course Japan could continue to hold onto their claim and just live out the mutual phototaking of JASDF and PLAAF, heightening tensions for everyone. I expect they would also seek even more rigorously to find nations to build an anti-China alliance as well. Of course that will only result in further tensions in the region.


It's a shame to think this entire debacle is about three bare rocks (and of course over a century of bloodshed and bad history). I think negotiations is the best route for all.
Like I said earlier, I'm rather certain that China didn't want to establish an ADIZ. They did it because they deemed it necessary given the level of escalation the dispute over Diaoyutai has stirred. While forcing diplomacy is certainly one possible goal for establishing this ADIZ, this move and other forms of escalation also have a hedging effect in the event that overtures are constantly rejected.
 
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Blitzo

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Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Like I said earlier, I'm rather certain that China didn't want to establish an ADIZ. They did it because they deemed it necessary given the level of escalation the dispute over Diaoyutai has stirred. While diplomacy is certainly one possible goal for establishing this ADIZ, this move and other forms of escalation also have a hedging effect in the event that overtures are constantly rejected.


I disagree, I think an ADIZ is absolutely necessary regardless of the islands dispute.

China faces many regional threats from US airbases in the region, and the US have stated their intent to attack the mainland in event of a conflict. The fact that they didn't have an ADIZ before this was frankly unacceptable.



I think what China may offer is for the two sides to demilitarize the islands at first, such as by limiting military air presence and then sea presence. Of course this would technically require massive concessions on the Japanese side because they've been staunch in their "this is our territory" position for a while now, and have constantly rejected diplomatic overtures.
 

latenlazy

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Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

I disagree, I think an ADIZ is absolutely necessary regardless of the islands dispute.

China faces many regional threats from US airbases in the region, and the US have stated their intent to attack the mainland in event of a conflict. The fact that they didn't have an ADIZ before this was frankly unacceptable.



I think what China may offer is for the two sides to demilitarize the islands at first, such as by limiting military air presence and then sea presence. Of course this would technically require massive concessions on the Japanese side because they've been staunch in their "this is our territory" position for a while now, and have constantly rejected diplomatic overtures.

Well, I meant over this particular area and this particular instance of dispute. Eventually China would have to establish/extend their ADIZ, but given the level of development of their military, they're not quite as ready to enforce it this far out as they would be another decade or two from now.

As for what diplomatic terms may look like, both China's and the US's ideal preferences are indeed a demilitarization, but China would also want official recognition that the ownership of Diaoyutai is in dispute if there were a formal diplomatic agreement. That's simply untenable for Japan right now however. I think if these tensions die down it is far more likely to take the form of an informal and quiet de-escalation and de-militarization with promises for (superficial) dialogue (the statement would have to be worded without declaring that Japan concedes ambiguity) that returns this situation to a limbo state. This would be acceptable to China and won't shake up Japan, as China probably sees itself gaining a better diplomatic foothold over time to settle the issue once and for all in the future.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Like I said earlier, I'm rather certain that China didn't want to establish an ADIZ. They did it because they deemed it necessary given the level of escalation the dispute over Diaoyutai has stirred. While forcing diplomacy is certainly one possible goal for establishing this ADIZ, this move and other forms of escalation also have a hedging effect in the event that overtures are constantly rejected.

David Lampton, China Studies professor at Johns Hopkins University, said Xi Jinping is the kind of leader that will match force with greater force and return humbleness with greater humbleness. Shinzo Abe has been playing hardball, and Xi Jinping is showing he could be harder. There's also the 'kill a chicken to scare the monkey' effect with the smaller contestants.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Remember, China recent policy is to achieve a parity in terms of activities around Diaoyudao. Japan used to be the only one to send coast guard vessels to police the islands' surrounding water. Now, China does that as well. Japan used to be the one having an ADIZ. Now, China has one as well.

So, the issue isn't so much about what China can do to US aircraft when those aircraft intrude into Chinese ADIZ. Rather, it is about what China will do to Japan's ADIZ now that US has set an example for China to follow. Perhaps China will fly its own bombers over Diaoyudao now.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

David Lampton, China Studies professor at Johns Hopkins University, said Xi Jinping is the kind of leader that will match force with greater force and return humbleness with greater humbleness. Shinzo Abe has been playing hardball, and Xi Jinping is showing he could be harder. There's also the 'kill a chicken to scare the monkey' effect with the smaller contestants.

No doubt, but that doesn't mean putting out their ADIZ at this time was ideal for China. Xi did what he had to to hold up China's credibility, very likely without blinking, but that's different from saying that putting out this ADIZ was the most desired option.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

No doubt, but that doesn't mean putting out their ADIZ at this time was ideal for China. Xi did what he had to to hold up China's credibility, very likely without blinking, but that's different from saying that putting out this ADIZ was the most desired option.

China might feel she has some wiggle room to compromise with the US, but no such flexibility with Japan. And given what's being said by Chinese netzen (
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), the ADIZ might be Xi's 'least bad' choices.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

China might feel she has some wiggle room to compromise with the US, but no such flexibility with Japan. And given what's being said by Chinese netzen (
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), the ADIZ might be Xi's 'least bad' choices.

What I was thinking. As I said earlier, history has demonstrated that China often gets more concessions from Japan when it goes through the US than directly.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Here are some excellent posts on the matter coming from Reddit that I feel obligate to share.

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t_co said:
Cross posting here because the debate here is way off the mark:

The article is being deliberately misleading, and the US response doesn't help its allies at all.

First, the NYT/BBC confuses an Air Defense Zone and an Air Defense Identification Zone. An ADZ implies control of the territory or sea underneath it, and comes with shoot-down rights if the counterparty does not comply. An ADIZ is does not obligate other parties to do anything - it simply obligates the originating party (here, the Chinese Air Force) to patrol the zone, track flying objects, and identify them by communicative, electronic, or visual means.

Second, the US response is actually a non-response. Any country can send whatever it wants into an ADIZ. What China can then do is track and intercept said objects - if it so chooses to do so. To make everyone's lives easier, China has asked civilian airliners to submit flight plans through the ADIZ in advance, so that 777s full of tourists and businesspeople don't get welcomed by J-11s sporting a full complement of A2A missiles.

The real 'battle' here is at this civilian level, and it's one in which China has already mostly won. Other than Japan, every other nation's airlines are notifying China of their flight plans in advance. A friend of mine who used to be stationed at Kadena has told me that on any given day, 80-100% of the air traffic (e.g. radar signatures) in what is now China's ADIZ is civilian traffic. This means that China's job of sifting through air-defense radar returns just got cut by 4/5ths - which means China has already gotten what it wants.

Now, the US could certainly try to arm-twist South Korea, Singapore, Australia, and Taiwan into removing their airlines off the list, but that would be a legitimately unfriendly act towards China since China has already put its own airlines on the ADIZ lists of all those countries.

The final piece of this puzzle is that China has built 280 airports in the past 10 years. China is the fastest growing civil aviation market on Earth. If any Asian carrier doesn't play ball on the ADIZ, it can expect to lose out on the market, since the profitability of an airline is notoriously sensitive to government regulation - even extremely 'soft'/'invisible'/'reasonable' regulations governing noise levels and flight patterns. Given that most of these Asian carriers need that growth to stay alive (due to rising fuel costs), China has essentially leveraged its internal strengths to hand the US and Japan a Hobbesian choice - force your allies to impose economic losses on their own airlines or let China get air control parity in the East China Sea (remember, Japan has held the advantage there for a long time since it was the only state with a huge ADIZ).

TLDR: China's move is something that leverages China's internal strengths well, the NYT/BBC don't know shit, and the US is trying to chest-thump its way past a Hobbesian choice while leaving the hard decisions to its East Asian allies.


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EricRickJoeZhou said:
Okay, there are few misconceptions you have which I feel the need to address.

China has been stepping up claims over the past few years that it owns the Japanese Senkaku islands, which the Chinese now call the Diaoyu islands. What China did here was claim the airspace above the Senkaku islands, but very subtly.

The Chinese aren't just "now" calling it the Diaoyu islands. They've always called it the Diaoyu islands. One can dispute whether the history of the Chinese claim to the islands which range back to the 12-13th century are still valid, but the fact is if you asked a Chinese a hundred years ago to point at a map and ask what those three rocks are, they will give you "Diaoyu Dao". China has recently "stepped up" its claims to the islands, yes.

However that was because of two moves in particular which no one seems to care about. Namely that is the 2010 arrest of a Chinese fisherman near the islands. Another is the far more provocative September 2012 Japanese government purchase of the islands. China had actually agreed to shelve the territorial dispute with Japan when they re-established relations some 40 years ago. But 2010's events basically spat in the face of that.

If you want a more detailed recent history of why this dispute is flaring, click
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. The website is The Diplomat, and before anyone accuses it of being pro china, it is actually a western outlet.

For those who can't be bothered reading, basically China believes the Cairo Communique means the now disputed islands should have been handed back to them as a territory which Japan had invaded, but was unilaterally handed to Japan after the US occupation. China had decided to agree to not touch the matter of the dispute when they reestablished links with Japan and the rest of the world in the late 70s -- there was a sort of "gentleman's agreement," but this was effectively torn to shreds in 2010 and 2012.

The People's Liberation Army set up an Air Defense Identification Zone- basically a version of a no-fly zone, but one in which airlines are allowed to fly through if they provide prior notice. We don't know if that will hold true for military aircraft, and China threatened to take "defensive measures" if anybody- Japanese, Russian, American, Australian, etc.- decided to fly through it.

First, I want to point out that both
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and the
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already have had ADIZs for decades. China's ADIZ is actually very similar to the US in terms of principle. Neither renounce the use for "emergency measures" for instance. Of course, China's ADIZ is far smaller than either the US or Japan's.

So let's get into the gravy of things. A NFZ and an ADIZ are very different. An ADIZ doesn't restrict aircraft from flying through it. China has made it very explicit that civil international flights won't be affected. In other words, it will only be military aircraft that will be effected. Now what does this effect entail? Well they've given a list of instructions which are fairly in line with international norms. Basically they will intercept and tail military aircraft not so differently to how USAF F-15s and F-22s tail Russian Tu-95s when they near Alaska. The use of force is never restricted, not for the US ADIZ, not for the Japanese ADIZ, and for fun, here's the massive ADIZ for
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.

A NFZ on the other hand, explicitly prohibits aircraft of various types and services (unidentified, civilian, military) from flying through it.

ADIZ merely seeks to identify and intercept unidentified military aircraft and monitor them.

For anyone interested,
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is the FAA's instruction manual for US ADIZ procedure.

That, of course, was a very subtle trick. China didn't actually lay claim to the islands, but they forced anybody passing near them to acknowledge their new authority. If Japan didn't contest this, China would have new administrative power over the formerly Japanese territory. There's no doubt that this is almost certainly a deliberate act by the US to defy the zone and curb China from trying to claim more territory.

It depends. ADIZ's do not restrict military aircraft from flying in there. They are only there to give a nation forewarning of potential threats at a long distance. In China's case, it is also a good ancillary reason to bolster their claim to the disputed islands and erode Japan's administrative power. However, the presence of US B-52s isn't really a big deal, for a few reasons that I will emphasise on below.

The real question is going to be how China reacts. In Chinese culture, there is a great emphasis on "saving face", accounting for why so much nationalism is being kicked about right now. Once you go past a certain point, you've got to keep going or remain there to avoid embarrassment. If there is one thing that the Chinese are extremely sensitive to, it is the idea of being embarrassed. Flying B-52s through airspace claimed by you is pretty embarrassing, in my opinion- although to be fair, China probably didn't have much defense set up because they didn't own the airspace beforehand.

I'll just repeat, that the ADIZ doesn't actually prohibit military aircraft flying through it. While the Chinese do have a thing for saving face, in this case there really isn't any face to save. The point of an ADIZ is to identify potential threats. These are usually fast flying jets and bombers that are hard to ID. The B-52 has one of the largest RCS of any aircraft that is in US service, and the US have previously operated planes in the area before the Chinese ADIZ too. Not exactly a really threatening posture compared to how the US have operated before.

So I'll elaborate what the Chinese ADIZ actually means, for military flights.

1: It doesn't prohibit other nation's military aircraft from operating in the zone.

2: It does give the PLAAF/PLANAF an internationally recognized norm to intercept and identify potentially hostile aircraft (this is something all nations do).

3: And ultimately, if the aircraft is unresponsive, the PLAAF/PLANAF reserve the right to use emergency measures. This may mean forcing the plane to land or use of direct force. The chinese government's list of rules doesn't list the procedures of what entails a use of force. We can be sure the chinese pilots do have one however.

A little background -- the US have flown missions near Chinese airspace for years. US aircraft carrier battle groups have consistently exercised in the East China Sea. So the US have always had a military air presence in the area, it was just never reported because there was never an ADIZ. Now there is an ADIZ, and apparently people believe it means the US cannot do military flights in the zone. That is incorrect. The flights will simply be IDed by PLAAF AEWC, and some may be intercepted and tailed by fighters until the leave the zone. Again, standard practice which the US have been doing with the Russians for decades.

So, what does China's ADIZ mean for the disputed islands? Well this is one area which I think the Chinese have played a good hand.

The Japanese have publicly said that they would shoot down "foreign drones" that enter its airspace -- and by their definition, the airspace over Diaoyu/Senkaku is their airspace. The fact that the Chinese ADIZ includes the disputed islands by definition means PLAAF and PLANAF aircraft will fly over the zone.

Basically it gives an internationally recognized pretext to fly over a particular airspace. This leaves Abe in a situation where the airspace of the disputed islands is being directly challenged. If we want to talk semantics, if the JASDF doesn't shoot at Chinese military aircraft that fly over the disputed islands is a loss in itself, simply because the claim that they will shoot "foreign drones" over their airspace must also extend to "foreign military aircraft" too.

In any case, because China and Japan's ADIZ
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, I'm sure we will see some interesting pictures of fighters of both sides taking pictures of one another.

If anyone is interested in why the US is in an uproar over this ADIZ, check this
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article (the site has bad ads, but this write up is extremely erudite), and the author also expounded on some topics on a
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.

Edit: Thanks kind stranger for the gold, and thanks everyone for responding, even those who disagree with what I wrote! I think cross pollination of each other's ideas and opinions is the best way to defuse tensions. Cheers :)
 
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