East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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Blitzo

Blitzo

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SamuraiBlue said:
This again is just deflecting the event at hand.
Even if the relationship between the two nations has been strained these past years. The two nations should refrain from taking amateurish and reckless act that may lead to further miscalculations resulting to a conflict.
I predict the US military will continue patrolling the region only with fighter escorts added to the mix. PRC only exacerbated the situation not reducing it.
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Well political channels weren't working, they had to do something, and clearly the risk of miscalculation was worth sending the message. If anything it demonstrates how severe a threat they see these acts.

I wonder if they will send fighter escorts; you'd think they would've done so consistently since the EP-3 incident.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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As I said, the US ran a surveillance/SIGINT mission, well in international air space. Nothing unusual about it.

The Chinese, who consider the Hainan Island area very sensitive, intercepted the US aircraft, also in international air space. Nothing unusual about that on its face either. They are as free to fly into international airspace as the US is.

Now, clearly the US felt that the Chinese aircraft hazarded the US aircraft...and so the US is protesting. That is their right. They may also send a message, just like the Chinese did...with another carrier and possible escorts. They are completely free to do so in international air space and waters.

The outcome may continue to escalate. Lets hope not. We will have to see.

But this type of intercept happened during the Cold War...not as in every month or so, but over the course of twenty years...a lot of times.

These types of flights, when one major power wants to gather information on another, is not a risk free thing. Never has been...I do not think it ever will be.

The fact is, if the US thought that the PRC was about to discover very classified information while flying close to one of our most sensitive bases...we would respond to warn them off. Perhaps not with what we might consider a dangerous provocation (ie. a barrel roll over the surveillance aircraft)...but the Chinese might think whatever warning we gave was.

They then would be free to protest, and/or send a stronger message about it...just as the US is doing. This is not outside of a normal sequence of events in geopolitical circumstances.

To date, no one has been injured. The US aircraft was not forced to land, or even...to my knowledge...forced to abort.

Also, I must add, when you look at the location, it is also clear that this had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the ADIZ that is the purpose of this thread. The ADIZ is north of Taiwan. This happened off of Hainan Island, almost 1,300 kilometers to the south west of Taiwan.
 
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pla101prc

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laws and morality aside, you gotta admit those were some pretty cool stunts the PLAAF pilot pulled off. clearly the PLAAF pilots' skills have vastly improved

whether one like it or not that pilot will most likely be rewarded in some way back at his unit. and he will be looked upon enviously by his peers, which will fuel more of this stuff in the future.
 
Blitzo

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pla101prc said:
laws and morality aside, you gotta admit those were some pretty cool stunts the PLAAF pilot pulled off. clearly the PLAAF pilots' skills have vastly improved

whether one like it or not that pilot will most likely be rewarded in some way back at his unit. and he will be looked upon enviously by his peers, which will fuel more of this stuff in the future.
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I think that really depends if the act was a sanctioned one or not.

If it was, he probably had some some parameters to allow aggressive maneuvering. If not, then rewards would be the last thing he'd be getting, and everyone else would be warned, and the fuelling of this is not going to happen.

But by the sounds of it, that particular unit had intercepted previous flights semi aggressively (but whether they were exaggerations or not is another matter), so chances are, they do have some official, but limited sanction to allow for aggressive intercepts.
 
A

A.Man

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Jeff, in many occasions, the US government misled publics. I don't think Admiral Kirby telling the truth. The PLAN J-11BH fighter in the photos, released by Pentagon, is far away than Admiral Kirby suggested 30 feet to the US Navy P-8 plane. There are few examples of the US making charges with wrong facts:

1) Gulf of Tonkin Incident, once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War;

2) President Bush asserted peaceful measures could not disarm Iraq of the weapons he alleged it to have and launched a second Gulf War, despite multiple dissenting opinions and questions of integrity about the underlying intelligence. Later U.S.-led inspections agreed that Iraq had earlier abandoned its WMD programs, but asserted Iraq had an intention to pursue those programs if UN sanctions were ever lifted;

3) US Secretary of State John Kerry has said there is overwhelming evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines plane in Ukraine. Please provide evidences to the charges by Mr. Kerry.
 
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Blackstone

Blackstone

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SamuraiBlue said:
You simply refuse to accept that it is not "Someone's" air space it is INTERNATIONAL　airspace that anyone is assured free passage and loitering.
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Right you are, Samurai! International laws and norms allow the US to spy all she wants outside any country's 12-mile limit, and the US does not and should not buckle to pressure from China or anyone else to stop it. China has the right to send her own assets into US EEZ, and has done so several times. In addition, China and US are strategic rivals, and it makes good sense for both sides to keep tabs on the other, so stop whining and reciprocate.
 
Blitzo

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Blackstone said:
Right you are, Samurai! International laws and norms allow the US to spy all she wants outside any country's 12-mile limit, and the US does not and should not buckle to pressure from China or anyone else to stop it. China has the right to send her own assets into US EEZ, and has done so several times. In addition, China and US are strategic rivals, and it makes good sense for both sides to keep tabs on the other, so stop whining and reciprocate.
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Give me a break, if China ever had the capability to seriously threaten the US the way the US threatens China, you will end up seeing a response similar to the cuban missile crisis. The US political and military establishment already complains about the PRC's ability to develop weapons that could strike at the vast array of US assets on china's doorstep. If China gains an ability to credibly threaten CONTUS the way the US threatens the Chinese mainland, you can bet the US will not idly stand by and let China do surveillance activities either. In fact, it would be irresponsible if they did not respond the same way China is responding to US surveillance now.

As I've repeatedly stated, the issue isn't US surveillance, it is US surveillance + military capability.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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pla101prc said:
that pilot will most likely be rewarded in some way back at his unit. and he will be looked upon enviously by his peers, which will fuel more of this stuff in the future.
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Actually, unless he was ordered to do so...he most certainly will not.

Any professional military organization would severely reprimand such a pilot and probably ground him.

Despite what Hollywood and Tom Cruise may portray, military service is not about hot dogging with a multi-million dollar aircraft and risking life, equipment, and international relations when they are not ordered to do so.

Discipline is critical for that very reason.
 
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Blackstone

Blackstone

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A.Man said:
Jeff, in many occasions, the US government misled publics. I don't think Admiral Kirby telling the truth. The PLAN J-11BH fighter in the photos, released by Pentagon, is far away than Admiral Kirby suggested 30 feet to the US Navy P-8 plane. There are few examples of the US making charges with wrong facts:
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It's very doubtful Admiral Kerby would lie about something as potentially deadly as another EP-3 incident. I'd give both sides the benefit of the doubt; Chinese pilot may have been hotdogging and flew closer than previous intercepts; US aircrew may have had visions of EP-3 in their minds, and misjudged the actual distances. The bottom line is unless full and complete videos are released, the public simply doesn't know what really happened. Let's chalk it up to both sides being a little right and a little wrong.
 
Brumby

Brumby

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Jeff Head said:
As I said, the US ran a surveillance/SIGINT mission, well in international air space. Nothing unusual about it.

The Chinese, who consider the Hainan Island area very sensitive, intercepted the US aircraft, also in international air space. Nothing unusual about that on its face either. They are as free to fly into international airspace as the US is.

Now, clearly the US felt that the Chinese aircraft hazarded the US aircraft...and so the US is protesting. That is their right. They may also send a message, just like the Chinese did...with another carrier and possible escorts. They are completely free to do so in international air space and waters.

The outcome may continue to escalate. Lets hope not. We will have to see.

But this type of intercept happened during the Cold War...not as in every month or so, but over the course of twenty years...a lot of times.

These types of flights, when one major power wants to gather information on another, is not a risk free thing. Never has been...I do not think it ever will be.

The fact is, if the US thought that the PRC was about to discover very classified information while flying close to one of our most sensitive bases...we would respond to warn them off. Perhaps not with what we might consider a dangerous provocation (ie. a barrel roll over the surveillance aircraft)...but the Chinese might think whatever warning we gave was.

They then would be free to protest, and/or send a stronger message about it...just as the US is doing. This is not outside of a normal sequence of events in geopolitical circumstances.

To date, no one has been injured. The US aircraft was not forced to land, or even...to my knowledge...forced to abort.

Also, I must add, when you look at the location, it is also clear that this had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the ADIZ that is the purpose of this thread. The ADIZ is north of Taiwan. This happened off of Hainan Island, almost 1,300 kilometers to the south west of Taiwan.
Click to expand...

In my mind, there are two ways to read this incident.

1) It is a single act of a pilot operating outside of SOP and so if the facts bear it out then it is an issue of discipline and professionalism.

2) A more problematic one is tacit change in attitude at policy level to be more assertive. This coupled with the Cowpen incident may suggest a progressive shift in testing US resolved and a new envelope.
 
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