East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Bltizo said:

Come on blackstone, you know better than to flame bait...

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Actually Bltizo, that is exactly what it is, that is why Admiral Kirby is issuing this warning from the Pentagon, he's protesting the careless and reckless manner the aircraft was being operated. Blackstone is simply characterizing this incident as the Admiral did. The Chinese pilot has an ejection seat and parachute, the P-8 is a military version of a 737, that crew would be lost in the event of a mid-air, and you know that.

Air Force Brat said:

Actually Bltizo, that is exactly what it is, that is why Admiral Kirby is issuing this warning from the Pentagon, he's protesting the careless and reckless manner the aircraft was being operated. Blackstone is simply characterizing this incident as the Admiral did. The Chinese pilot has an ejection seat and parachute, the P-8 is a military version of a 737, that crew would be lost in the event of a mid-air, and you know that.

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I have no problem with how blackstone is characterizing the incident. It's the part I bolded which I thought was unnecessary, but whatever.

antiterror13 said:

so, it wouldn't a provocation if it was 135 miles offshore of the US .... carried out by the Chinese or Russian surveillance plane ?

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US would send fighters to accompany the Chinese or Russian, at safe distances, and make sure they don't get lonely or loose their bearings. Hotdogging US pilots that commit unsafe maneuvers are likely to face charges and not accolades.

Bltizo said:

Every act and response has been within reasonable boundaries so far, despite what the media is trying to spin

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It is not the spin of the media. The US has protested that the actions of the Chinese pilot is outside of the norm of what is considered safe. One might dispute what is consider safe but that is for those defending such actions to make the case.

It is also argued that so far the facts are one sided but I have not seen the Chinese government responding to the facts of the other side.

Blackstone said:

US would send fighters to accompany the Chinese or Russian, at safe distances, and make sure they don't get lonely or loose their bearings. Hotdogging US pilots that commit unsafe maneuvers are likely to face charges and not accolades.

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Even if the strategic situation were also reversed?

None of you are even bothering addressing the big picture which causes these kind of dangerous encounters. EP-3, Impeccable, Cowpens, and now this P-8 -- there is a pattern bigger than simply unprofessional training or conduct here.

Bltizo said:

But what if the east and west coasts were also swimming with Chinese and Russian SSNs and SSBNs, CSGs, and cuba was host to air bases with stealth fighters and nuclear capable bombers, and if the USN only had two or three nuclear sub bases and four or five SSBNs between them?

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This is simply counterfactual reasoning.

Brumby said:

It is not the spin of the media. The US has protested that the actions of the Chinese pilot is outside of the norm of what is considered safe.

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I agree the act itself was beyond what the norms could be considered safe, but the spin being played here is that the aggressive act of interception was an unreasonable one.

Brumby said:

This is simply counterfactual reasoning.

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Putting the shoe on the other foot, turning the tables, call it what you want.

The entire point of hypothetical situations is to judge the reasonableness of actions and ideas.

Interception of spy planes is perfectly normal as is flying them. After all there are literally thousands of photographs of Russian Birds with American fighters in tow. The issue is the attitude towards the spy plane. The description of the incidents both the EP3 and this latest show PLAAF pilots looking to swap paint. Highly aggressive behavior in the form of ramming, wing smacking and in this case a full stunt show over the bird. By contrast American interceptions are downright cordial "You Boys better go home now" being the biggest stunt pulled by a raptor pilot on a interception of Iranian fighters.as long as the spy bird is in international air space she is open to do as she pleases. That's a fact. A interception in international air space is no issue either but there are rules of conduct that are supposed to be followed between the interceptor and the intercepted, that's what's wrong.

Bltizo said:

I agree the act itself was beyond what the norms could be considered safe, but the spin being played here is that the aggressive act of interception was an unreasonable one.

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I would differ in the way you have outlined it.

The contention is not in the interception but rather the aggressive nature of it that can seriously lead to lives being lost and potentially escalating the issue.

Bltizo said:

Even if the strategic situation were also reversed?

None of you are even bothering addressing the big picture which causes these kind of dangerous encounters. EP-3, Impeccable, Cowpens, and now this P-8 -- there is a pattern bigger than simply unprofessional training or conduct here.

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My personal opinion is George W. Bush, a President I admire and twice voted for, made a strategic mistake by changing the status quo of surveillance off China's coast. Up to 1989, Communist leaders didn't like seeing US spy assets off China's coast, but they didn't really do much about it. When the Soviet Union collapsed and was replaced by a democratic, pro-West government, US reduced surveillance of Russia, and guess there the excess assets ended up? Yup, off China's coast. As above, so below, and I lay the current tit for tat problem at W's feet.