Does Taiwan Need An MBT?

Impossible. Me and istvan were both debating about the kind of damage tanks could do to a ship. But we both agree whtat their is no way a tank can shink a ship, especially if the ship has bulkheads.

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well MBT cannot sink 10,000 cargo ship or aircraft carrier, but again, 100-125mm HE ammunition does actually lot more damage than many currently used naval guns. Dedicated anti-armour ammunition doesent bring much damage, but pure kinetic energy brings. Single gun shell doesen't sink the ship, but neither does any other currently fielded naval or coastal artillery shell. So you can live in denial and continue repeating it like a mantra if you want but as a humble guestion, what you try to achieve whit it?

MIGleader said:

I think I make a valid point when I bring up the logistics of supporting new, advnaced tanks. There will need to be supply trucks that carry spare parts for the tanks. Other trucks will need to bring in fuel. , and yet others ammunition. what happens when a tanker is wounded? All of this will take a toll on taiwanese traffic. So my point is that taiwan must learn how to handle and support a big fleet of tanks before aquring them. This should make good duscussion.

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Miggy I quite agree about logistics since they are most important part of military warfare (all that fancy toys we so much admire wont worth a shit without proper supply base).

But I think that logistics would pose much smaller problem for Taiwan then for PRC…
They already have experience in tank logistics, they have all logistic vehicles they need, they have prepared supply and ammo dumps all around Island…
It is all a matter of incorporating new ammo and spare parts in current logistic system… Same as China is doing whit new type96 and type99 logistics…

renmin said:

I dont think a invasion in taiwan for the Chinese would even require MBTs, for one thing, they are tough to move and only a few can be transported at a time. Next comes supply, for all the ammo and fuel, a large base must be set up. I dont think the PRC wants to spend that much money.

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Renmin you cant attack any army without proper armored support. Light armor is useful in initial attack but they would be wiped out without proper armor support if defenders try any kind of proper counterattack…

As for costs of tank usage you naturally understand that all sides would suffer mayor casualties in both troops and equipment. Now if we consider costs of modern fighters, ships, PGMs, AAMs, SAMs, ATGMs, armored vehicles, etc. both sides would spend enormous amounts of money if war begins… Now costs of tank logistics and usage would be quite small compared to other costs and without tanks you would leave your troops without proper support…

I dont think a invasion in taiwan for the Chinese would even require MBTs, for one thing, they are tough to move and only a few can be transported at a time. Next comes supply, for all the ammo and fuel, a large base must be set up. I dont think the PRC wants to spend that much money. Taiwan is just a small island, either way, they can not aquire a huge force of MBTs, its just not practical. I dont think large tanks would be involved at all, unless the US comes in with their Abrams fleet, then the T-99s would have to be rolled in

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But Taiwan already have a tankforce, so PLA/N cannot ignore it. The key is the operational doctrine of ROC tanks, and even with relatively small numbers, 50-100 all fielded in centerized shock unit can do devastating effect. In WWII germans managed to beat (in tactical level) the superior quality and quantity tank forces of USSR simply by using their own inferior tanks more properly. ROCs existing tanks are superior to the chinese amphibious tanks (Type 63) so it would be foolish to not use them when defending against the intial naval assault. Remember, PLA must succeed in the first wave, in order to continue it's effort and thats where the taiwan invasion weakness lies...The amphibious assault is the only way PLA can occupate Taiwan and the numerical superioty wont make any difference. The avantage is with ROC and with proper tactics and strategies their task isen't impossiple at all.
With modern tankforce this task is even easier and could be even the stepping stone to PLA to reconsider the whole invasion. China isen't noway near to be able to perform similar type of airdominance than Allies did in First gulfwar and the serbian campaing in in both the majority of the enemys land forces weren't paralyzed. In fact the serbian ground forces managed to withstand suprizingly well the airassaults and this fact (almoust) alone prevented the NATO ground operation. There's no reason to believe that Taiwan wont be able to perform as good...

So again, Tanks are essential to in conventional warfare, so it would be foolish of Taiwanese to think othervice. Taiwan needs MBTs and i'm sure they will continue supporting a prominent tankforce in future too.

In WWII germans managed to beat (in tactical level) the superior quality and quantity tank forces of USSR simply by using their own inferior tanks more properly

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Since when? The Germans lost to the russians at kursk, perhaps the premier example of tank-tank battle. in the end, it was the panzefaust and panzershrek that succeded in killing soviet tanks.

The amphibious assault is the only way PLA can occupate Taiwan

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I would disagree. The chinese, in the near future, will have considerable paratroops assets, enough to drop several hundred soldiers and some ZBD 2000s into taiwan. These troops, armed with anti-tank weapons, will be able to do some damage to taiwans tank forces before the main invasion. Damage includes killing tankers, damaging tanks, and preventing them from being able to deploy in time.

Golle, please dont drag the AF in here, were sticking to the invasion only.

MIGleader said:

I would disagree. The chinese, in the near future, will have considerable paratroops assets, enough to drop several hundred soldiers and some ZBD 2000s into taiwan. These troops, armed with anti-tank weapons, will be able to do some damage to taiwans tank forces before the main invasion. Damage includes killing tankers, damaging tanks, and preventing them from being able to deploy in time.

Golle, please dont drag the AF in here, were sticking to the invasion only.

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My friend lets try to be realistic; how long few hundred paratroopers and few ZBD 2000 vehicles would survive in country that has 200000 soldiers and over 1000 tanks…
They would be decimated before they could touch ground…

Now since small unit tactics and counterinsurgency warfare is my field of expertise I can tell you that only Chinese units in ROC would be SF guys, most probably LLRP scouts and Chinese SEAL equivalent and they would tray to operate as covert as possible.

They missions would include surveillance of ROC military movements, target acquiring, attacks on transport and logistic facilities, locations of SAM sites etc.

They definitely would not use ATGM for attack at tanks nor ZBD2000; they wouldn’t assassinate tankers but high ranking military officials etc…

Since when? The Germans lost to the russians at kursk, perhaps the premier example of tank-tank battle. in the end, it was the panzefaust and panzershrek that succeded in killing soviet tanks.

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Since when? Well here's a little homework for you kids, what went on in the east front 1941-45...man perhaps little research before making statements like these....but like I said, you have now recieved a homework which I hold that you fullfill it. By the end of the summer you will know every major battles, the average numbers of troops and tanks involved and brief introductions of the actual engagement and the direct and undirect results. There wont be any proplems to find out the sources, as it's propaply one of the most covered part of entire military history...so chop chop, I will hold a special quiz to test wheter you learned anyhting...

I would disagree. The chinese, in the near future, will have considerable paratroops assets, enough to drop several hundred soldiers and some ZBD 2000s into taiwan. These troops, armed with anti-tank weapons, will be able to do some damage to taiwans tank forces before the main invasion. Damage includes killing tankers, damaging tanks, and preventing them from being able to deploy in time.

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Air assault troops are just small fraction of the general picture, no war can be won entirely relying on them. They are used for basicly one purpose only, and thats for causing chaos as long as they can run free, which isen't very long period of time. I wont deny their effiency, but they wont do no good if you cannot open bridgeheads and hold them untill the main landtroops arrives. You cannot suply them, and they are quite easily to surround. Airmobile ACPs and IFVs are merely moral support to the troops, no IFV airmobile or not can fight against tanks and expect them coming out as a victorious, they are not mented to do so. Isthavan said it rahter well...

Now what comes to SOFs and other "sexy" specialforces, yeas they have certain important roles to play in the war, but in the end it's all down to the main branches, infantry, cavalry( in this case meaning amoured troops) and artillery. It's the holy trinity, one failing, and the whole operation might fail...

My friend lets try to be realistic; how long few hundred paratroopers and few ZBD 2000 vehicles would survive in country that has 200000 soldiers and over 1000 tanks…
They would be decimated before they could touch ground…

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This is only a prelude to the invasion. The allies only landed a few thousand paratroopers in normandy, and the germans had 60 divisions in France and several panzer divisions nearby. Using your logic, the allied paratroop dropping would have failed.

These paratroops would come as an addition to an SOF;s inserted into taiwan before the invasion.

both of you, I never said the para;s alone could do the job. They are merely paving way for the marines, in areas near thei nvasion site. If China is smart, It will select a less defended site, with less tanks, for an attack. Taiwan cannot defend all of its beaches.

also, unlike an amphibious force, the paradrop force can be deployed to the area fairly quickly, and will have a smaller chance of being discovered.

Since when? Well here's a little homework for you kids, what went on in the east front 1941-45...man perhaps little research before making statements like these....but like I said, you have now recieved a homework which I hold that you fullfill it.

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Getting lazy are we...:nono:
I do know most of the battles in the eastern front. Following the German failure to take moscow, the majority of them were losses for hitler...stalingrad...kursk...

My statement is nothing "noobish". Since you made the orginal claim, it is your obligation to provide proof. Dont tell me to find your proof, why should I? And if you decline to provide proof, I will disregard your statement.

MIGleader said:

Getting lazy are we...:nono:
I do know most of the battles in the eastern front. Following the German failure to take moscow, the majority of them were losses for hitler...stalingrad...kursk...

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Here goes Finn with his history again...the Eastern Front of WWII was the greatest struggle ever waged between two countries. It is one of my favorite subjects. A good example of what Gollevainen is talking about is the Battle of 2nd Kharkov. it was after the German defeat at Moscow. The Soviets, armed with the T-34, launched a huge offensive in the Southern Front. Initially the Soviets were very sucessful, advancing miles into German-held territory. The Germans, using Panzer IIIs and IVs, which were inferior to the T-34, were able to encircle the Soviets and crush them, enflicting one of the worst defeats of the war. Another is the Battle of the Kamnets-Poldosky pocket, in which the Germans managed to save the 1st Panzer Army, 200,000 men. Their commander Hans-Valentin Hube, lead the battered troops through miles of Soviet territory. They escaped mainly because of their superior tactics, and the fact that they concentrated their force, so even though the Soviets outnumbered them by more than two to one, they still were never outnumbered at a tactical level.

Back to the present. It has been overlooked that in the first few days of an invasion, the Chinese armoured force would be made up mostly by Type 63s, PTL02s dropped in by air and IFVs. They would have very little heavy armour, because as we have seen MBTs are very difficult to transport. They would also probably not have as many tanks as the ROC forces. So it appears that hte ROC would have an all round advantage in the area of tanks, at least in the first few critical days. The PLA would have to rely very heavily on infantry-used ATMs, what little air support it could muster, and the effectiveness of its paratroopers and air attacks in delaying an armoured counterattack. The PLA has realized that, because both Marine battalions have a dedicated anti-tank company.

My statement is nothing "noobish". Since you made the orginal claim, it is your obligation to provide proof. Dont tell me to find your proof, why should I? And if you decline to provide proof, I will disregard your statement.

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Man you know how to twist things...But it doesen't give you any excuses, actually your cokcyness made it so that I will do you pop quiz tonight after I get from work, failing it will get you into serious trouple. So I suggest you go and read my lad...Finngave you few rather good hints but there is more...

This is only a prelude to the invasion. The allies only landed a few thousand paratroopers in normandy, and the germans had 60 divisions in France and several panzer divisions nearby. Using your logic, the allied paratroop dropping would have failed

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In normandy, the allied actual landing operation, in which the paratroopers suppoerted succeeded. PLA haven't got the capapility to field such a massive landing operation so no matter how much airmobile troops they have or how nice equipment they posses, they are still living in spare time and that time runs short fast if the amphibious force cannot break through.

Paratroops?! Oh, please......................what happen to Taiwanese tanks?

And when Taiwan comes against an invasion force, PLAN most likely if any in the near future, what's the chance that the target ship is an armored 3000+ ton destroyer? I seriously doubt a landing ship at 3000 tonnes can have much armor. Any more armor on a landing ship that's 3000 tonnes normally and now carrying vehicles, and it will beach. And there's the easier LCs. A regular LC travels at 9 knots, way slow enough for a tank to shoot at. A LCAC may be a bigger challenge, but if you make a hole on a LCAC's hull, I wonder how it'll work anymore. (China does have LCACs, but not Zubrs.) And please be remind, none of these are armored (effectively to stop much.), so if you make a hole in the right place on the waterline, what'd you think will happen?

As for choosing tanks....
Should Taiwan just acquire another 105mm tank? Or should they get a 120mm?