Does Taiwan Need An MBT?

Found this article on the newspaper today (well it was actually yesterday's paper) and I thought it might be interesting for you guys, so here's the online version, with translation.



記者許紹軒／台北報導〕國防部持續加強首都防禦！據指出，軍方因應中國人民解放軍戰力的增強，今年底將把目前部署在金門的五八四裝甲旅調回台灣本島，加入北部第六軍團的作戰序列，將駐防在林口台地，這是近年來北部所部署的第二個裝甲旅，以加強打擊戰力。


原本駐防在林口的陸戰旅將遷到淡水後備動員管理學校現址，自此第六軍團兵力雄厚，平時有超過十個旅級部隊，戰時將有將近卅個旅級單位，軍方內部戲稱為「天下第一軍團」。

軍方表示，在今年漢光廿二號兵棋推演，由於北部裝甲部隊不足，中、南部軍團都把裝甲旅北調，造成中南部防務空虛，無力阻擋解放軍的登陸船團登岸，加強首都裝甲戰力成為當務之急。

據調查，陸軍現有五個裝甲旅，分別是北部六軍團五四二旅、中部十軍團五八六旅、南部八軍團五六四旅、澎防部五○三旅與金門的五八四旅；一般而言，本島裝甲旅編制較大，裝備人員數量較外島為多，每旅兵力超過四千人，戰車約一百廿輛。

澎防部裝甲旅兵力不到四千人，金門五八四旅最小，兵力僅近三千人，戰車約八十輛，其中大部分車輛為老舊的M41戰車，五八四旅調回台灣後，陸軍將會補充裝備，配發先前因整併而多出來的裝步旅戰車，並將員額充實，金防部將保留一個戰車營作為防衛打擊力量。

據指出，由於台灣大部分地帶都屬於都會區，尤其北基桃竹城鎮幾乎連成一氣，依照美軍在伊拉克的經驗，重型戰車在城鎮巷道不利前進，加上我國陸軍不再反攻大陸，戰車大決戰機會減少，本島防衛是陸軍首先考量的重點，現已確定不會再大規模採購重型戰車，雲豹八輪甲車配備大口徑突擊砲將成為陸軍下一代戰車，並以攻擊直升機增強火力，另外還採購少量世界先進戰車做重點部署。

The MND (Ministry of National Defense) has decided to re-deploy the 584th Armored Brigade (currently based in Kinmen) to Linkow, joining the 6th Army Corps Armored Brigade. The Marines currently based in Linkow will move to Tamsui, further up north into the suburban area.

Results from this year's HK22 exercises showed a shortage of armor in the North, forcing units from South and Central Taiwan to reinforce their numbers, seriously weakening the anti-amphibious force in other regions.

There are 5 active Armored Bdes in the Army, the 542nd in the North (6th Army), 586th under the 10th Corps (Central), 564th under the 8th Army corps (Southern), 503rd in Penghu, and 584th in Kinmen. Generally the Armor Bdes in Taiwan are larger, with personnel strength averaging 4000, with 120 combat vehicles.

Out of all of those the Kinmen Armor Bde is the smallest, with around 3000 personnel and 80 combat vehicles, mostly old M41s. Once they complete the move back to Taiwan they will be refitted and re-deployed to respective divisions in Taiwan. Kinmen Command will retain only one armored battalion as its main strike force.

Major portions of Taiwan (especially in the North) are urban, which is not the ideal terrain for heavy armor. In addition, given the defensive nature of the current doctrine, there is (nearly) no chance the army will purchase large quantities of MBTs in the near future. Cloud Leopards will be the Army's mainstay fighting vehicles, combined with attack helicopters. Small batches of advanced MBTs will still be bought, though.

*Edited to reflect T-U-P's translation correction. Thanks!*

Thanks for the article, It basicly said what i'm saying, that Taiwan realizes the need of tanks even when facing defensive warfare. It also pointed out that ROCA is well avere of the backwardness of it's tank fleet. The article mentioned Leopards(II assume) which are quite enough what Taiwan needs.

And once again (hope for the last time) When tank fires a HE round towards a non-amoured ship, the effect is bit larger than just "small hole in the hull". Thrust me, I've seen what HE round can do....Single shot wont sink it, but then again none currently used naval gu cannot sink LST size ship with single shot...

MIGleader said:

This is only a prelude to the invasion. The allies only landed a few thousand paratroopers in normandy, and the germans had 60 divisions in France and several panzer divisions nearby. Using your logic, the allied paratroop dropping would have failed.

These paratroops would come as an addition to an SOF;s inserted into taiwan before the invasion.

both of you, I never said the para;s alone could do the job. They are merely paving way for the marines, in areas near thei nvasion site. If China is smart, It will select a less defended site, with less tanks, for an attack. Taiwan cannot defend all of its beaches.

also, unlike an amphibious force, the paradrop force can be deployed to the area fairly quickly, and will have a smaller chance of being discovered.

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As much I like Normandy comparison there are quite few differences;
-few thousand paratroopers were US 82nd and 101st airborne division and 6th British airborne plus other airborne units. That’s around 20000 men, if we make comparison to China that’s about 80% of troops China can field whit current aerial and ship transports…
-paratroopers suffered heavy losses (some elements of British 6th airborne had up to 50% casualties rate) but managed to achieve there mission objectives. Question is how long would they stand ground if landing forces couldn’t open beachheads or if they countered any serious Panzer opposition?

Also you may consider small SF unit Para drop as stealthy operation but few hundred/ thousand troops need quit big number of transports and that is definitely not stealthy operation… And once they are discovered they will be surrounded, outnumbered and outgunned and since they don’t stand a chance against any armor opposition they will probably be wipeout in weary short time…

sumdud said:

As for choosing tanks....
Should Taiwan just acquire another 105mm tank? Or should they get a 120mm?

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Well if opposition is type 99 then definitely 120mm gun, but if we look how 105mm gun performed against Russian tanks in Gulf wars and new munitions available for it I think that 105mm is still more then useful weapon (especially if we know that in any kind of invasion majority of attack force will make amphibious tanks and IFVs who are woundable even to old 76mm gun on M41D).


Zergling thanks on the article; it answers many questions. I assume that Cloud Leopards are CM-32 IFVs since I read that Taiwan will make new rapid reaction units similar to US Stryker brigades based around CM-32 IFVs?

isthvan said:

Zergling thanks on the article; it answers many questions. I assume that Cloud Leopards are CM-32 IFVs since I read that Taiwan will make new rapid reaction units similar to US Stryker brigades based around CM-32 IFVs?

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Yeah, it's the CM32. Given the top priority given to mobility as opposed to firepower in Taiwan's military doctrine, it makes sense. Mass production is slated for 2007, after it passes tactical evaluation. They should replace the M-51 tanks, while the M48s and M60s will remain the backbone of the Army's armor. With each unit estimated to cost roughly NT 65 million, that's about 1/4th~1/3d the price of a Stryker.

As far as I know the problems with suspension handling the recoil of the 105mm haven't been solved yet...

The_Zergling said:

Yeah, it's the CM32. Given the top priority given to mobility as opposed to firepower in Taiwan's military doctrine, it makes sense. Mass production is slated for 2007, after it passes tactical evaluation. They should replace the M-51 tanks, while the M48s and M60s will remain the backbone of the Army's armor. With each unit estimated to cost roughly NT 65 million, that's about 1/4th~1/3d the price of a Stryker.

As far as I know the problems with suspension handling the recoil of the 105mm haven't been solved yet...

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Those new units backed by MBT units will be quite capable to deal whit various threats and will enable ROC troops to conduct quick containment missions…
It looks to me that CM32 is more comparable to USMC LAV then to Stryker and price is probably lower because they lack (and don’t need) all that electronics, sensors and communication systems for network centricity Stryker uses.

As for recoil problems they are not only ones having them… That was one of main problems whit 105mm Stryker version.
It’s quite probable that US will share experience from that development and that they will help in further CM32 development…

maybe this is a translation mistake:

The_Zergling said:

據指出，由於台灣大部分地帶都屬於都會區，尤其北基桃竹城鎮幾乎連成一氣，依照美軍在伊拉克的經驗，重型戰車在城鎮巷道不利前進，

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vs.

Major portions of Taiwan (especially in the North) are urban, which is the ideal terrain for heavy armor.

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the chinese version says that heavy armor is not ideal for urban environments because of the narraw streets in some areas, whereas the english translation says it is idea terrain for heavy armor...

Like most of you've already said, taiwan doesn't need a lot of MBT because it's mostly urban cities and mountains. helicopters are much more preferred.

Message removed by Sampan

Taiwan needs to get rid of its oldest tanks, the M-48s and M-51s. They are obsolete. The funds used to run these tanks would be much better spent on more attack helicopters, a smaller number of new MBTs or something Taiwan really needs, more A2A missles. I once said that a good model for Taiwan is Israel. Both are relatively small countries facing enemies that vastly outnumber them and both must absorb the first blow (errr....except the 6 day war). Both must rely on speed of attack, professionalism and air superiority to win. In case you haven't noticed, Israel got rid of its M48s along while ago.

What was that whole "Capn sampans cabin" thing about?

renmin said:

very true, a airbase of some sort would have to be set up for something as big as a T-98 to be rolled in. It just isnt eficciant to carry them by ship.

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I dissagree, China has extremely limited airlift ability to carry MBTs - the Il-76s can only carry one at a time (at a push). Ships are altogether more practical for transporting tanks.

T-U-P said:

maybe this is a translation mistake:

the chinese version says that heavy armor is not ideal for urban environments because of the narraw streets in some areas, whereas the english translation says it is ideal terrain for heavy armor...

Like most of you've already said, taiwan doesn't need a lot of MBT because it's mostly urban cities and mountains. helicopters are much more preferred.

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Sorry, my mistake. Typo... T-U-P's correct, the article states that the terrain is NOT good for heavy armor.

What popped out at me first was the shift of strategy. In the same paper there was another small article discussing the military's reactions to the redeployment, as well as pros and cons.

What I find particularly interesting is the viewpoint of the pro side, stating that should conflict really arise, units based at Kinmen and Matsu would be not much more than hostages, and from the HK22 exercises it was decided that the Northern area would have more use of armor than the outlying islands.

This implies to me a "hunker down and take it" mindset which might possibly be an indicator of future Taiwan military strategy, perhaps allocating resources to survive a first strike, and drag out an invasion as long as possible. At least that's what I'd see from having more tanks defending the capital then on outlying islands, which can quite easily be island-hopped or curb-stomped with ballistic missiles and artillery.

And as stated earlier, Taiwan apparently is also putting heavy emphasis on mobility, hence the increasing role of attack helicopters and relatively fast armored units.