Does Taiwan Need An MBT?

I have not heard of the k1a1 being for export. Theres only one line of production going on right now, at the Hyundai facility at Changwon. This plant currently produces tanks for and only for a Korean Army requirement.

Export tanks need a sperate production line, which would take at least yars to set up, and Taiwan would have to pay for it along with the tanks.

MIGleader said:

I have not heard of the k1a1 being for export. Theres only one line of production going on right now, at the Hyundai facility at Changwon. This plant currently produces tanks for and only for a Korean Army requirement.

Export tanks need a sperate production line, which would take at least yars to set up, and Taiwan would have to pay for it along with the tanks.

Click to expand...

I have asked because AFAIK K1 was offered to Malaysia, but they chose PT-91 Twardy instead… And any of these two tanks would perfectly fit Taiwanese Army needs…

ALright then, rather than hunt for tank suppliers, Taiwan should just make the tank contract an open bid, and see if their are any takers. I still think the provider will ultimately be the u.s

Modern MBT has play an important role in today's military, especially in land conflict. However, in Taiwan's scenario, obtaining new MBT would be hard and impractical. The northern part of Taiwan is mostly highlands and city, and from the experience in Iraq, Capable MBT, such as the Abrahams are having little impact on the war itself. MBT in urban scenario are use solely as fire support. In terms of fire support, the 105mm rifle gun from Taiwan's M60A3 is sufficent. In the southern part of Taiwan, the terrain is mostly jungle and swampland. Which is a major disadvantage for armored vehicles. Taiwan is also too small for operating big modern MBT such as the Abramhams. Its heavy weight, (69.54Tons) can also be damaging when operating on the road, which would certainly damaged the road and slow down other vehicles, such as transport. Unlike Europe and the Middle East, where vast amount of dessert and plain are excellent terrain for MBT engagement, there is no major plains or dessert in Taiwan, which is why, Taiwan has yet to obtain any new MBT fitted with 120mm gun. China is unlikely to use Type 99 during the conflict, due to its expensive unit price and incapability in fighting urban/scenario, since most MBT are prone to Anti tank weapon in urban battlefields. China would most likely employ type 96 and Type 63 for beach landing. Taiwan understands that the moment PLA forces landed on Taiwan, Taiwan is doom, therefore, the RoC government put its focuses on Air Force and Navy, trying to hold on the direct landing of PLA and await US intervention, therefore, obtaining new MBT is impractical. RoCA has a variety of modern anti tank weapon to defeat chinese MBT, also, they might not totally destroy the MBT, they are most likely going to disable type 96.

Hsiung Feng, I have to disagree. A brigade or two of MBTs are something that would significantly aid in Taiwan's defence.

-Tanks offer the best option for counterattacks against Chinese landings and airdrops. The ROCs military is quite large for such a small country, and China's amphbious capability is not enough to quickly gain numerical superiority, especially under naval and air attack. Basically in the first few days the PLA troops landed would probably be outnumbered by the ROC troops, because they could concentrate their force at the beachead and the PLA would be slowed by it relatively small number of transports and lack of naval and air supremacy. Combine that with the fact that the PLA probably would only land Type 63s, Type 96s, and IFVs in the first days as well and two ROCA Armoured Brigades armed with MBTs and supported by Cobras and light anti-tank armed vehicles (SUVs armed with TOWs for example) become a major threat to the landing.

-The PLAAF, as I said does not have much tank killing ability, so the ROCs armour would be able to operate mostly unhampered from the air, at least in the first few days.

-Look at the Normandy campaign. Even in the hedgerows, tanks were still useful. Both sides used them as gun platforms, blasting a path through enemy defences. The Germans also laid skilled ambushes and used their tanks superior size and firepower to great advantage. If you would like to see more detail about that, look up the battle of Villers-Bocage. Normandy was horrible tank country, so don't try to use terrain to discount the use of tanks. People have tried to do that in every war since WWI, and tanks have always proved useful. Besides, much of Western Taiwan is open plains with a mix of urban enviroment, perfect for using tanks.

As I said earlier, I think a good option would be the PT-91 Twardy. Not too expensive, and Poland doesn't have very much of a relationship with th PRC, so Taiwan probably would get the tank. Plus, with explosive reactive armour, that thing looks bad-ass.

-Look at the Normandy campaign. Even in the hedgerows, tanks were still useful. Both sides used them as gun platforms, blasting a path through enemy defences. The Germans also laid skilled ambushes and used their tanks superior size and firepower to great advantage. If you would like to see more detail about that, look up the battle of Villers-Bocage. Normandy was horrible tank country, so don't try to use terrain to discount the use of tanks. People have tried to do that in every war since WWI, and tanks have always proved useful. Besides, much of Western Taiwan is open plains with a mix of urban enviroment, perfect for using tanks.

Click to expand...

That was 60 years ago. Modern land tactics and equipment have changed conisderably since then. There is a reason people are beggining to call the tank outdated. The germans used the hedgeros to ambush Shermans. On taiwans beaches, there is little cover for tanks to hide. Normandy suceeded becuase the allies landed thousands of tanks. 100-200 tanks simply wont do it today.

Now, Im pretty certain that it would be for the greater good of taiwan t buy tanks. But you must understand, the same money spent on tanks could buy taiwan...fighter jets, a ship or two, and new SAMs. We must weigh which purchase would help taiwan the most.

Yes Mig you're right. But what are you saying here?

The germans used the hedgeros to ambush Shermans. On taiwans beaches, there is little cover for tanks to hide. Normandy suceeded becuase the allies landed thousands of tanks. 100-200 tanks simply wont do it today.

Click to expand...

Obviously I'm not advocating Taiwan having a large force of armoured divisions. A brigade would probably be enough. The Navy and Air Force are Taiwan's main hope. But a good force of MBTs would provide a "second line" that could attack the beachead when it was most vunerable. It would also give Taiwan more time to wait for an American intervention (please lets not get into that discussion again.) A fast, heavy armoured attack on Chinese forces that had just gotten a lodgement onshore and only had maybe 15,000 troops landed (basically the first wave) could turn the tide. If the Taiwanese moved fast enough it is concievable that in that scenario they drive the Chinese either back into the sea or back onto the beach, making it almost impossible for the PLAN to land more troops.

That was 60 years ago. Modern land tactics and equipment have changed conisderably since then. There is a reason people are beggining to call the tank outdated. The germans used the hedgeros to ambush Shermans. On taiwans beaches, there is little cover for tanks to hide. Normandy suceeded becuase the allies landed thousands of tanks. 100-200 tanks simply wont do it today

Click to expand...

well people who speak about whitdrawing the tanks are referring their insuitability to low end burst wars...in modern all-arms conflict armour still ranks as top element of the infantry. Sure tactics have changed but to that end that tanks ultimate role has become even futher evident. Its all about the doctrines and tactics, of how to emplyo your tanks and most importantly, how to emply the logistics ans communications to ensure their operationality. Even in WWII where allyes, most notably russians fielded thousand of tanks, they little rare manouvred obove regimental/brigade level in mass concentrations. It has been mentioned that Taiwan is small country. That is in great deal of importance to any Taiwanese commander that can have (theroethically) huge per centages of entire Taiwanese armour in hand...100-200 tanks concentrated on single landing site would do lot...even today

Finn McCool, according to Global Security, Taiwan already have 5 armour bridgades, with 376 M60A3, 450 M48H, 775 M48A5 and M41D,that's 1831 armor units, not including the 1175 armor fighting vehicles in the Mechanized Infantry division. i think these are enough for Taiwan to defend itself from the beach landing. Now, i am not saying Taiwan shouldn't purchase any MBT, i am simply saying the government should spend the money on Air Force and Navy, and use the rest of the fund to obtain Explosive Reactive armor for its armour vehicles. In Normandy, German panzer did ambush the American Sherman, however, don't forget, because the German lost its Air superiority, the Allies were able to use its Air Force to kill the Panzers from Air in Normandy. The only source of MBT is mostly US, since PRC is most likely going to protest any arm transfer between Taiwan and other countries.

SampanViking said:

I have no doubt, that TDF would fight to defend the Island against an Invasion, but would they fight to protect Independance?

Indeed, I wonder if the DPP is more worried about their own modern tanks being turned against them than they are about facing a PLA Invasion. I think it would be interesting to know how general pro Blue/Green affinities split throughout the various branches of Taiwans armed forces and to look at the various procurement deadlocks in that light.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is the way it is, but I am curious to find out whether it is.

Click to expand...

***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


FuManChu...Knock off the political posting. Period

bd popeye moderator

Personally I think that Taiwan may need to reconsider its anti-armour options. But certainly heavy battle tanks are not the answer. Taiwan is a crouded island - we're not talking about the Gulf here. Better to have flexible units and equipment, though personally I couldn't recommend any one thing. As to large spends, I think they need to get the PAC-3s and Orions (not sure on the subs), as well as upgrade the Kang Dings, strengthen airforce base bunker defences, etc.

MBTs should be low on the army's list of priorities. I'd get Apaches over them.