Does Taiwan Need An MBT?

You completely misunderstand me. Im saying Taiwan should get tanks, but tanks should not be the sole option. alone, they are vulnerable, but when deployed in combination with other weapons, they can hold off the PLA.

Actually, the original mission of the wz-9 was pure anti-tank, as the hj-8 was the only weapon it could carry. do not underestimate the hj-8's abilities, it cna penetrate over 1000mm of armour, as well as ERA.A wz-9 can hold four such missles

A side note:
From an article i read on China defence, it seems taiwan is actually tryng to use it's m60s to fire on invading PLAN ships. How stupid!!!

I dont think that China should worry too much wether Taiwan get a new MBT... In fact they should get a whole bunch.. Taiwan seems likely to be reabsorbed back into mainland China eventually as the bulk of its economic trade is geared towards the mainland. Also, as the mainland opens up its political system it is very likely that it will be accomodating to the Taiwanese form of politics in the near future.. hence in the end... whatever Taiwan has in its current inventory will eventually be handed over to PRC in the future.. SO they should get as many modern (preferably M1A2) tanks as possible!:rofl:
:china:

It has nothing equivalent to the SU-25 of the A-10.

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Well, thought it might be a bit older, the Q-5 is designed to fill the same role. Maybe it'd take more Q-5s than A-10s and Su-25s to get the job done, but the Q-5 is a sturdy well-protected design that sports a small but still effective anti-tank weapons load. China has a few hundred Q-5s they can throw in. The difficulty is range... I'm not sure if the Q-5s can reach that far. But then again, A-10s and Su-25s aren't known for their range either.

PakTopGun said:

I dont think that China should worry too much wether Taiwan get a new MBT... In fact they should get a whole bunch.. Taiwan seems likely to be reabsorbed back into mainland China eventually as the bulk of its economic trade is geared towards the mainland. Also, as the mainland opens up its political system it is very likely that it will be accomodating to the Taiwanese form of politics in the near future.. hence in the end... whatever Taiwan has in its current inventory will eventually be handed over to PRC in the future.. SO they should get as many modern (preferably M1A2) tanks as possible!:rofl:
:china:

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Not to change the subject, but I think that the US would get back its modern equipment in the event of a peaceful reunification, which I also believe is coming in the next couple of decades.

What are some possible canidates for importation if Taiwan decides to buy a foreign MBT? How would they be used? I've already said what I think. What do you think?

(Trying to get this going and back on topic.)

Finn McCool said:

Mig, you seem to think that war is just like rock-paper-scissors. The fact that tanks can be destroyed and the PLA has the means to destroy them does not mean that Taiwan does not need them. Anti-tank launchers cannot lead counterattacks that would be necessary to contain and delay the PLAs advance. Besides, the PLA has no dedicated tank killing air platforms. It has nothing equivalent to the SU-25 of the A-10. It does not have an anti-tank helicopter either. One last thing. Having MBTs is a benefit because it forces China to deploy other assests like the PL-02, more Type 99s, etc. to counter them. That taxes the PLAN and the PLAAFs already limited transport capability, slowing the critical timetable for invasion. Basically it raises the price of business for the PLA so to speak. But I do agree with you on that infantry, light vehicles and helicopters would play a large role in Taiwan's defence, because it is not economical or practical for Taiwan to have armoured divisions.

Kamphwagen-Much of Taiwan is a mix of flat countryside and plains, urban areas and highways. Especially the area facing the Strait. That's perfect tanks country.

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The WZ-9 can kill tanks, the WZ-10 is going to be out soon and is just as good as your Apache helicopter. The Fantan though not as good as a A-10 stil is a good anti-tank platform. I Think China has several tank killing air platforms.

well Q-5 isent good antitank platform unless it can carry decent ATGMs or ligth ASM of Maveric caliber to hit tanks. Rocket salvoes and iron bombs are too innaqurate to counter tanks and laser guided bombs are just too expensive.

Also we know almoust nothing about WZ-10 so isent it rather childish to say that its 'as good as your apache'...acording to what? becouse all new chinese weapons has to be better than US counterparts?

But fielding somwhat 'superior' tank force in terms of possiple future acustions isent anyway bad option for Taiwanese defences. But like someone said, war isent paper-rock-sicsors, what counts even more is the cohesion of Taiwanese tank forces. How they are fielded and to where. Good consentration and tactical flexibilty even of these old tanks can provide force enough to whipe out anything PLAN puts ashore...but tanks cannot do it by them self. They need C3 functions of that level that they can survive from PLAs intial attacks and keep the fire support, artillery (the one that really matters in ground war) in the reach.

MIGleader said:

1. Equip Cobras with HOT missles. Very deadly, and takes advantage of taiwans existing cobra fleet

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MIGleader AH1 is armed whit TOW, HOT is European counterpart to TOW and Cobra wouldn’t gain nothing whit HOT. They could modernize them to carry Hellfire but that’s not cheep.

MIGleader said:

Another advantage these options have compared to more tanks is that these weapons are less vulnerable to Chinese tank-destroyers. At only 19 tonnes, the pl-02 tank destroyer is airdroppable, posing a big challenge to taiwanese tanks.

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As for dedicated tank destroyers they are simple to woundable on modern battlefields. NATO countries use wheeled IFV armed whit 105mm gun as infantry fire support platforms whit secondary anti-tank role… They simple don’t have armor, sensors or firepower to counter tanks without friendly MBT support. Even old T-55 MBT poses considerable threat to tank-destroyers…

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Well, thought it might be a bit older, the Q-5 is designed to fill the same role. Maybe it'd take more Q-5s than A-10s and Su-25s to get the job done, but the Q-5 is a sturdy well-protected design that sports a small but still effective anti-tank weapons load. China has a few hundred Q-5s they can throw in. The difficulty is range... I'm not sure if the Q-5s can reach that far. But then again, A-10s and Su-25s aren't known for their range either.

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Q-5 is light attack plane comparable whit A-4 (still A-4 is better) and is no were near to Su-25 or A-10. I doesn’t have armor, sensors or weapons to fill there role. Those planes are made to survive in hostile environment while Q-5 was joust stopgap measure for PLAAF in lack of better planes… It has more in common whit Vietnam era F-100 then whit modern attackers.

renmin said:

The WZ-9 can kill tanks, the WZ-10 is going to be out soon and is just as good as your Apache helicopter. The Fantan though not as good as a A-10 stil is a good anti-tank platform. I Think China has several tank killing air platforms.

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WZ-9 can kill tanks but lacks armor and weapons range for dedicated anti-tank role. Modern attack helicopters have great problems whit enemy’s air defenses and they often survive only because great armor protection and weapons systems… Now how long do you think that WZ-9 could survive in such hostile environment?
As for WZ-10 lets at least wait to see one real picture before we decide that it is best helicopter in the world.
So let’s be realistic; Chinese anti-tank capabilities need lots of improvement… But again this thread is about Taiwanese tanks and not about Chinese anti-tank platforms…

As for dedicated tank destroyers they are simple to woundable on modern battlefields. NATO countries use wheeled IFV armed whit 105mm gun as infantry fire support platforms whit secondary anti-tank role… They simple don’t have armor, sensors or firepower to counter tanks without friendly MBT support. Even old T-55 MBT poses considerable threat to tank-destroyers…

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Yes, I understand the pl-02 has weak armor, but should not restrict it's use. It is very MOBILE, unlike tanks. And as for the IFV thing, China uses ATGMs such as Arkan on it's IFV's to kill tanks.

Were gettign seriously offtopic...
Taiwan's options of a foreign tank are extremely limited. France wont sell, Russia wont sell, Isreal probably wont sell, Germany...is questionalble, since Taiwan has had no previous military contact with germany. It just goes to show the value of China to these exporters.

Taiwan has two options:
Ukraine and the t-84,
And they can try to get the leopard II

If not, america appears to be the only way.

MIGleader said:

Yes, I understand the pl-02 has weak armor, but should not restrict it's use. It is very MOBILE, unlike tanks. And as for the IFV thing, China uses ATGMs such as Arkan on it's IFV's to kill tanks.

Were gettign seriously offtopic...
Taiwan's options of a foreign tank are extremely limited. France wont sell, Russia wont sell, Isreal probably wont sell, Germany...is questionalble, since Taiwan has had no previous military contact with germany. It just goes to show the value of China to these exporters.

Taiwan has two options:
Ukraine and the t-84,
And they can try to get the leopard II

If not, america appears to be the only way.

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Well as for pl-02 mobility can be great but only mobility can’t replace decent armor. Same goes for IFV armed whit ATGMs. IFV without tank and infantry support don’t have to long life expectancy on modern battlefields...

As for LeoII I believe that German government would never allowed any military system sale to Taiwan… They have history of not selling weapons if that’s politically impropriate…
What about K1a1? Would South Korea sell weapon systems to Taiwan?

I wonder if there is another reason, why ROC Govt is so unwilling to make this commitment.

I have no doubt, that TDF would fight to defend the Island against an Invasion, but would they fight to protect Independance?

Indeed, I wonder if the DPP is more worried about their own modern tanks being turned against them than they are about facing a PLA Invasion. I think it would be interesting to know how general pro Blue/Green affinities split throughout the various branches of Taiwans armed forces and to look at the various procurement deadlocks in that light.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is the way it is, but I am curious to find out whether it is.

TO badly misquote Sherlock Holmes "Once you have discounted the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, is the truth".