Do you think Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese?

Time to revive the old thread:

Wusangui is not only a hanjian (traitor to the han Chinese) but a traitor to the Manchus as well. He took up arms against the Manchus later in his life in the name of the Ming Dynasty (later changed it to Zhou and made himself Emperor) when Kangxi encrouched upon his authorities. Not exactly a moral person by anyone's standards.

siegecrossbow said:

Time to revive the old thread:

Wusangui is not only a hanjian (traitor to the han Chinese) but a traitor to the Manchus as well. He took up arms against the Manchus later in his life in the name of the Ming Dynasty (later changed it to Zhou and made himself Emperor) when Kangxi encrouched upon his authorities. Not exactly a moral person by anyone's standards.

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I don't see how he is traitor to Manchu, he is a Han. It is understandable he submmitted to Kangxi was just temporary to consolidate his power before striking out on his own. Actually this was just what most of the people at that time wanted him to do. Strike out on his own and end Qing rule. He don't owe Qing anything.

Manchu shall be grateful for him. Without his army and opening of Shanghai Guan. Manchu will never conquer Ming as proven their fruitless countless attempt to break thru the gate pass.

Lion said:

I don't see how he is traitor to Manchu, he is a Han. It is understandable he submmitted to Kangxi was just temporary to consolidate his power before striking out on his own. Actually this was just what most of the people at that time wanted him to do. Strike out on his own and end Qing rule. He don't owe Qing anything.

Manchu shall be grateful for him. Without his army and opening of Shanghai Guan. Manchu will never conquer Ming as proven their fruitless countless attempt to break thru the gate pass.

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Wu Sangui should not be praised for his revolt against the Qing, he didn't do it for altruistic reasons, it was only to protect his own personal power. He also abandoned the Ming for selfish reasons.

Spike said:

Wu Sangui should not be praised for his revolt against the Qing, he didn't do it for altruistic reasons, it was only to protect his own personal power. He also abandoned the Ming for selfish reasons.

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My points exactly! Besides a traitor doesn't necessarily have to be the same ethnicity as the people that he betrayed. Shi Jing Tang wasn't technically Han but most Chinese scholars consider him to be a hanjian regardless due to his cession of Chinese land to the Liao Tatar.

Lion said:

I don't see how he is traitor to Manchu, he is a Han. It is understandable he submmitted to Kangxi was just temporary to consolidate his power before striking out on his own. Actually this was just what most of the people at that time wanted him to do. Strike out on his own and end Qing rule. He don't owe Qing anything.

Manchu shall be grateful for him. Without his army and opening of Shanghai Guan. Manchu will never conquer Ming as proven their fruitless countless attempt to break thru the gate pass.

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He swore his loyalty to Manchu when he betrayed Ming, then later betrayed Qing (manchu). If that's not betrayal, I don't know what is. Again like I said previously, Wu had a habit of betraying his bosses. He's a traitor to the bone. He's one of those people that no boss should ever hire since he WILL betray you.

I don't understand why people try to justify what Wu did. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, justifiable about what Wu did. He's a the grass on top of a wall, swinging to whichever direction that benefits himself.

The machu wasnt too strong at that time, Wu and hes allys army was the main one that defeated the remaining forces of the Ming, chased the last Southern Ming child emperor into Burma and kill him there. He is a traitor, even if he almost hade just as much power as the Qing emperor.

What you are saying is a very typical traitor's saying,I think any traitors in the world have very sufficent reason to be tratior.To han people, dead is much more honorable than be a traitor.
So traitor is traitor,

for han chinese, i do
but, for all of chinese. i do not think so.

Ming dynasty is a very dark times, such as grievous corruption and emperors at the end of Ming are badly.

LeeFuchen said:

for han chinese, i do
but, for all of chinese. i do not think so.

Ming dynasty is a very dark times, such as grievous corruption and emperors at the end of Ming are badly.

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Please do not confuse an act of treason with a domestic rebellion. A domestic rebellion is considered as a treason to the old govn't, but not to the country. If Wu simply destroyed Ming dynasty on his own and established his own dynasty and became an emperor himself, yes, he would not be considered a traitor. However, he handed China to a foreign power. THAT is treason to the highest power. let's not forget Manchurians were NOT considered Chinese. The Manchuria had always been considered as foreign by Chinese before that time. Several infamous foreign invasions of China came from powers in that area throughout CHinese history (Liao and Jin). Additionally, only a few years before they marched into the Shanhai Pass, the Manchurians forced the Ming emperor to formally recognize them as the Empire of Later Jin. So no matter how you look at it, Wu handed over China to a foreign power. That, my friend, is treason.

Plus, let's also be clear of what China was at the time. Long before Ming dynasty, China has been a multi-ethic nation and had many ethic groups including Han. Even some emperors were not Han (like Li Shimin of Tang dynasty). Additionally, the emperors of Ming dynasty were muslims, which belong to Hui ethic group and NOT of Han origin. Many founders of the Ming dynasty were also muslim. So at the time of Wu Sangui, China did not belong to Han alone, but all Chinese ethic groups. So strictly speaking, Wu Sangui did not betray Han, but Hui ethic group since Ming dynasty was the personal property of the Ming emperor's and he was not a Han but a Hui. And no one should consider him a traitor simply because he destroyed Ming dynasty. Many before him and after him have destroyed old Chinese govn'ts/dynasties. None of them has been branded a traitor. Many greatest emperors in Chinese history have been founders of new dynasties, which means they all destroyed/betrayed their old govn't. Yet, most of them have been considered wisest and greatest by Chinese people. Wu Sangui has been consider a traitor because he betrayed China as a nation.

vesicles said:

Plus, let's also be clear of what China was at the time. Long before Ming dynasty, China has been a multi-ethic nation and had many ethic groups including Han. Even some emperors were not Han (like Li Shimin of Tang dynasty). Additionally, the emperors of Ming dynasty were muslims, which belong to Hui ethic group and NOT of Han origin. Many founders of the Ming dynasty were also muslim. So at the time of Wu Sangui, China did not belong to Han alone, but all Chinese ethic groups. So strictly speaking, Wu Sangui did not betray Han, but Hui ethic group since Ming dynasty was the personal property of the Ming emperor's and he was not a Han but a Hui. And no one should consider him a traitor simply because he destroyed Ming dynasty. Many before him and after him have destroyed old Chinese govn'ts/dynasties. None of them has been branded a traitor. Many greatest emperors in Chinese history have been founders of new dynasties, which means they all destroyed/betrayed their old govn't. Yet, most of them have been considered wisest and greatest by Chinese people. Wu Sangui has been consider a traitor because he betrayed China as a nation.

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Er... no. Founder of the Ming Dynasty cannot be a muslim. He is once a monk and by that, he cannot be a muslim. But he did have many muslims generals in his army and he written praises for the muslim, and had muslim mosques being built. But that doesn't translate into him and his descendents being muslim.