Do you think Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese?

In4ser said:

Its history because it happened in the past, not the present. You would be right if it happened a different way but not that it could have. So therefore It does not matter what the motive or the intention but how rather it effected the present is what is important.

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Being a traitor is defined by the act of betrayal, not by the consequences of that betrayal. If a traitor was fed false information and ultimately caused the victory of the side he betrayed, that still doesn't change the fact that he's a traitor. Likewise, it doesn't matter what the ultimate consequence of Wu Sangui's betrayal was, he was still a traitor.

solarz said:

Being a traitor is defined by the act of betrayal, not by the consequences of that betrayal. If a traitor was fed false information and ultimately caused the victory of the side he betrayed, that still doesn't change the fact that he's a traitor. Likewise, it doesn't matter what the ultimate consequence of Wu Sangui's betrayal was, he was still a traitor.

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Yet do you consider Sun Yat Sen, Chiang Kai Shek or Yuan Shikai traitors or patriots? You could argue both ways. Do you think we should all be loyal to the end, regardless of our beliefs?

We know Wu Sangui did join force with Manchurians but do not know the exact reasons. I have no doubt he did for power, but he may have thought he was justified because of the current state of the Ming being corrupt and unable government. After all since he was considered traitor to both Ming and Qing (later after establishing the Zhao dynasty) his story is likely skewed to make him the villain perhaps more than he was.

In4ser said:

Yet do you consider Sun Yat Sen, Chiang Kai Shek or Yuan Shikai traitors or patriots? You could argue both ways. Do you think we should all be loyal to the end, regardless of our beliefs?

We know Wu Sangui did join force with Manchurians but do not know the exact reasons. I have no doubt he did for power, but he may have thought he was justified because of the current state of the Ming being corrupt and unable government. After all since he was considered traitor to both Ming and Qing (later after establishing the Zhao dynasty) his story is likely skewed to make him the villain perhaps more than he was.

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Yuan Shikai is a huge traitor. Who did Sun Zhongshan betray? I don't think Jiang Jieshi betrayed anyone either, other than the usual political machinations.

They all plotted and participated in the act of betrayal of China (which at that time was the Qing Dynasty) yet are regarded as patriots (less so Yuan Shikai) but it was done to shift power. While Shikai ultimately was succumbed to his thirst for power it too claimed Chiang Kai Shek after the death of Sun Yat-sen drove out the Communist from the CCP-KMT coalition and turning facist and strove to control the entire nation for himself.

In4ser said:

Yet do you consider Sun Yat Sen, Chiang Kai Shek or Yuan Shikai traitors or patriots? You could argue both ways. Do you think we should all be loyal to the end, regardless of our beliefs?

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I don't know how many times I have to say this. It is a matter of national sovereignty. What happened in the 1900's was a domestic issue, Chinese vs. Chinese. As you mentioned, Qing dynasty was eventually part of China. Sun, Yuan and Jiang were all Chinese. This was Chinese vs. Chinese, similar to Li Zicheg vs. Ming dynasty. It was all domestic.

In4ser said:

We know Wu Sangui did join force with Manchurians but do not know the exact reasons. I have no doubt he did for power, but he may have thought he was justified because of the current state of the Ming being corrupt and unable government. After all since he was considered traitor to both Ming and Qing (later after establishing the Zhao dynasty) his story is likely skewed to make him the villain perhaps more than he was.

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I'd say he was a villain more than commonly thought. You first suggested that Wu did this with the benefit of Chines in mind. Then he tried to overthrow the one Qing emperor who was wise and good to the Chinese people. I'd say this shows he's a traitor to the bone. Betraying has become his habit. He betrayed his bosses twice. I'd say this further confirms that Wu was a person who easily changed and was not a loayl person. He's loyal only to one, himself.

Everyone does things because they believe what they do can be justified. That does not make what they do really justifiable to others.

In4ser said:

They all plotted and participated in the act of betrayal of China (which at that time was the Qing Dynasty) yet are regarded as patriots (less so Yuan Shikai) but it was done to shift power. While Shikai ultimately was succumbed to his thirst for power it too claimed Chiang Kai Shek after the death of Sun Yat-sen drove out the Communist from the CCP-KMT coalition and turning facist and strove to control the entire nation for himself.

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I am in shock on how you can put a "betrayal" spin on Sun and Jiang. again, Chinese vs. Chinese. All domestic issue!!! ever heard of the phrase "I love my country, but I hate my govn't"? These people fought against the empirical court of Qing. They did not betray China. Again, Chinese vs. Chinese. All domestic!! I hope I've hammered home my message. It's a matter of national sovereignty.

One side note, one of the biggest reasons that the U.S. govn't allows gun ownership is that common civilians can have weapons in hands to overthrow the U.S. govn't in case that the U.S. govn't becomes overly corrupt. As you can see, overthrowing one's own govn't is not betrayal at all.

Who the hell ever regards Yuan Shikai as a patriot? Do even the Taiwanese regard Jiang Jieshi as a patriot?

Yuankai is instrumental for the overthrow of Qing regardless of what he did afterwards. Though there is a lot of hatred towards Jiang Jieshi he still has name placed on monuments and instituions and even money.

In4ser said:

Yuankai is instrumental for the overthrow of Qing regardless of what he did afterwards. Though there is a lot of hatred towards Jiang Jieshi he still has name placed on monuments and instituions and even money.

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Umm, no he wasn't. The Xinghai revolution would've happened regardless of Yuan Shikai, and it wasn't his army that defeated the Qing garrison, either. It was out of consideration that he *did* possess the most powerful army that Sun Zhongshan gave him the seat of President. However, he was hardly instrumental in the overthrowing of the Qing. In fact, one could argue that Sun made a mistake, and that the new Republic would've been much healthier had Yuan not been in a position of power.

solarz said:

Umm, no he wasn't. The Xinghai revolution would've happened regardless of Yuan Shikai, and it wasn't his army that defeated the Qing garrison, either. It was out of consideration that he *did* possess the most powerful army that Sun Zhongshan gave him the seat of President. However, he was hardly instrumental in the overthrowing of the Qing. In fact, one could argue that Sun made a mistake, and that the new Republic would've been much healthier had Yuan not been in a position of power.

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...Yeaaah I guess you maybe right about that point, even though allying with him did prevent more during bloodshed during the revolution it certainly caused more bloodshed in after the split.