Do you think Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese?

Lion said:

What is the reason why so many Ming Generals and soldier decide to join Manchu?

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There are quite a few reasons for it... the most obvious ones are that the Ming Dynasty emperor do not trust the generals too much and for every expedition, the emperor would sent the enunch to follow the generals. These enunch know nothing about warfare and was always pulling down the entire army, but these enunchs have more power than the generals themselves.

Another reasons was that the Qing promises more wealth and power to these generals if they submit themselves to the Qing. The Ming at that time are corrupted and on the verge of collapsing, so there really is no loyalty from many of the generals.

rhino123 said:

There are quite a few reasons for it... the most obvious ones are that the Ming Dynasty emperor do not trust the generals too much and for every expedition, the emperor would sent the enunch to follow the generals. These enunch know nothing about warfare and was always pulling down the entire army, but these enunchs have more power than the generals themselves.

Another reasons was that the Qing promises more wealth and power to these generals if they submit themselves to the Qing. The Ming at that time are corrupted and on the verge of collapsing, so there really is no loyalty from many of the generals.

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Probably these general believe bring a Qing dynasty will bring better well being and life to ordinary Ming subjects? I heard near the ending of Ming dynasty. Ming government was extreme corrupted and cruel to ordinary Chinese people. Li zhicheng was one good example who was drove to rebel against Ming government. It probably explained why Li rebel gain popularity so fast and grow so strong. But Li zhicheng was heard more like a bandit group after they topple the Ming. I heard they ransack the Beijing for 3 days, robbing anything and killing at any will.

The general probably think using Qing to rid of all these corrupted Ming and rebel like Li zicheng was the best solution first.

I personally think personal wealth and power offer by Qing might not be enough to bring these general to their side. Its easy for us to criticise these general now. But how can we understand the hardship and chaotic moment during the dying moment of Ming Dynasty which brought to ordinary people?

vesicles said:

Also, I believe that saying "Manchurians could've done it via other ways" sounds a lot like shifting responsibility. It's like someone is caught shop-lifting. The thief might say "well, the security of that store is so low, someone will steal those clothes sooner or later even if I don't steal it..." that does not change the fact that he/she is a thief. Excuses, excuses, excuses...

So stop giving him excuses. Call him for what he is, a traitor.

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It's not excuses. I agree that Wu Sangui is a traitor, regardless of what *could* have happened. Treason is defined by one's intentions, and not by the consequences of one's actions.

It is refreshing to read this thread, and surprise to see SO MANY people somewhat familiar to China's history. Might I ask that among all the posts in this thread, anyone who is NOT an ethnic Chinese? That would be really surprise (and pround to heard).

My opinion, that MODERN Chinese CITIZENS, got a little "caught-flat-feeted" to China's historic prospect:

For modern Chinese society, it is a MUST, to tighten up the harmonic relationship between the majority race and the minority races of which Manchu among them; And what CCP has done in the history, is justifiable to the concept of "Being good for the Chinese people" (watchout the EXACTLY words!)

It is sensitive to some issue(like this thread), and even overseas Chinese ethnic people SHALL definitely being influnced in certain degree.

Think this: You can not give some kind of unresting suggestion to MODERN Manchu ethic Chinese citizens, that your ancestors were once considered non-Chinese (non-中华民族, which is odd to either citizenship or ethic diffination); it is BETTER NOT to memtion these non-Chinese people has invaded China sovereignty and later SUBMIT to Chinese culture, only because they can not kill off all the Chinese. And now they are (have to) being considerd as "among Chinese" 中华民族一员.


So when Wu sangui BETRAIED the Chinese ethnic and Chinese sovereignty to the later "among Chinese" (yet another race and sovereignty) kind of people - Even people without his political agenda, can be very confused.

Me, at other hand, considering this: If Japan successfully "take over" China during WWII, despite what ever NEW govt would say about it later, that Japan and Japenese, are definately non-Chinese. You guys can think similiar like if Japan takes over USA or Canada, or whatever "one takes over another" - Surrender to the one who "take over", especially HELPS KILLING the original people. That's undeniablly BETRAY in any measure. And the idea to sugar up any of that kind of betray, is an direct insult to A WHOLE SOVEREIGNTY RACE. and by that measure, an direct insult to NORMAL(SANE) HUMAN MORAL.

I have no single doubt, Manchu at that time, is a life-or-death enemy of China (watchout the EXACT words!), and Wu sangui's action have no single excuss. He is a traitor as long as human moral stands.