Discussing long term impacts of Ukraine crisis

ArmchairAnalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
They don't have to. They can bomb the convoys the moment they cross the border.

Russia will likely enforce a "demilitarisation" zone covering all of Ukraine that it won't annex. And Russia will also likely install a puppet in office to run the client state with a mandate to "protect its sovereignty". The gloves have come off. Putin won't accept that kind of bullshit anymore.
And neither will the Ukrainians or the West.
Without a long term viable solution, Putin will just kick the can further down the road, solving absolutely nothing and gaining very little if anything in return long term.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think it would be safe to assume that the large majority of Ukrainians resent or even hate Russia right now.
If Ukraine is partitioned unilaterally, by Russia, it would also be safe to assume that this resentment won't be diminished anytime soon making Ukrainian cooperation next to impossible. Russia would very likely have to enforce it at gunpoint.
The two parts would likely never be recognised as independant countries by most other countries (or the UN) if done unilaterally by Russia. The result: A frozen conflict boiling and waiting to explode down the line.

But yes, you are definitely right that it's one way of doing population resettlement.
Sometimes it works out somewhat reasonable like between Greece/Turkey in 1923:
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Sometimes it leads to catastrophic loss of lives, war and future conflict like the partition of India in 1947:
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Russian Ukrainians in Donbas and Crimea were fine with Russia.

I believe West Ukraine will be forced to sign on the dotted line for their own good. Once they accept that East Ukraine is gone they can go ahead and join EU/NATO. Otherwise they don't qualify due to territorial conflict.

Nobody will invest in West OR East Ukraine with a conflict on. I already showed how Ukrainian mismanagement of their economy caused it to stagnate for 30+ years. They can fight like Afghans, but do they want to live like Afghans for decades? Ukraine at peace was poorer than war torn Bosnia, what do you think their GDP per capita is now?

The only way they get even 0.1% hope of development is accepting Russia won so they can get money to rebuild and join EU.
 

ArmchairAnalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russian Ukrainians in Donbas and Crimea were fine with Russia.

I believe West Ukraine will be forced to sign on the dotted line for their own good. Once they accept that East Ukraine is gone they can go ahead and join EU/NATO. Otherwise they don't qualify due to territorial conflict.

That we agree on which is why I wrote unilaterally i.e. Russia just doing what it wants.
It would work much better with a formal treaty seen as legitimate by all invested parties.
Only the current Ukrainian leadership can provide such but would Putin accept that? Would they?
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
How so? There's only so much money you can dump into BRI countries before it starts leaking out into corruption, waste and local inflation.

CNBC

"When adjusted for climate change and adaption costs, the Asian Development Bank (ADB) has estimated that the Asia-Pacific region will require on average $1.7 trillion per year of additional infrastructure investment — or $26 trillion by 2030 — if current economic growth rates are to be sustained."

cnbc.com/advertorial/2018/03/06/where-is-the-funding-for-a-26-trillion-initiative-coming-from.html
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
That we agree on which is why I wrote unilaterally i.e. Russia just doing what it wants.
It would work much better with a formal treaty seen as legitimate by all invested parties.
Only the current Ukrainian leadership can provide such but would Putin accept that? Would they?
Putin would probably accept a partition. Western Ukraine is poorer than Eastern Ukraine even before the war.

Ukrainian government will be forced to sign the unequal treaty for their survival unless they want to live in misery and poverty trying to fight off Russia for decades. They also border EU. In time sympathy turns to contempt as refugees "take jobs" and turn the right wing against them.

In addition, Ukrainian politicians believe that all their problems will be solved once they join the EU. Signing is the fastest way to do that.
 

HereToSeePics

Junior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
CNBC

"When adjusted for climate change and adaption costs, the Asian Development Bank (ADB) has estimated that the Asia-Pacific region will require on average $1.7 trillion per year of additional infrastructure investment — or $26 trillion by 2030 — if current economic growth rates are to be sustained."

cnbc.com/advertorial/2018/03/06/where-is-the-funding-for-a-26-trillion-initiative-coming-from.html

Yes, everyone needs money, but that still doesn't answer the question of how China can rapidly diversify it's fx reserves. How would you distribute 1-2T USD to APAC nations while ensuring the money you're investing in their infrastructure is safe and what legal means China has if some of those countries gets "coup'ed" by certain world powers? Takes time, effort and manpower to create all the oversight and due diligence to protect your capital that you invest in others.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Yeah China has built enough stuff. Instead of expanding further they should slow down and secure them against foriegn intervention first. Places like central Asia is covered by Russia, but deeper in Africa it becomes risky.
 

supercat

Major
What game changer weapon systems that China need from Russia (if any) ? I can only think of nuclear sub and possibly S-500 ?
Technologies for air-breathing hypersonic missile?

It takes time to mitigate sanctions.
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Any bank using CIPS to circumvent Swift would also face the risk of secondary sanctions, said Nicholas Turner, a lawyer at Steptoe & Johnson LLP. “A secondary sanction applies to pretty ordinary commercial activity,” he said.

One longer-term option, if Western sanctions stay in place and cause long-term damage to the Russian economy and China’s strategic interests, would be for Beijing to tap smaller lenders to deal with Russia.

“It’s very easy to create a lot of single-purpose banks just to engage in sanction evading activities to help China’s friends,” said Prof. Chen. “If the conflict in Ukraine lasts for a few years, a number of such small single-purpose banks could be created as vehicles.”

Some small Chinese banks have previously facilitated trade with sanctioned countries such as North Korea and Iran.

In 2009 the oil major China National Petroleum Corp. bought a Xinjiang-based commercial bank, which was later renamed Bank of Kunlun. After that, the bank relied on deposits and other businesses from the CNPC family of companies, according to its annual reports.

In 2012, the Treasury Department sanctioned Bank of Kunlun, together with an Iraqi bank, for helping Iranian banks move millions of dollars, and barred it from accessing the U.S. financial system. Bank of Kunlun has in recent years wound down its activities in Iran, as China diversifies its energy sources.

“Even if Kunlun Bank is sanctioned by the U.S. and other countries, what’s the damage? Nothing. You have no business in any of the developed countries to begin with,” said Prof. Chen, who was an independent director of
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, the listed arm of CNPC, between 2011 and 2017.
Agreed. I would add that Russian policy makes fully understate and expect that they need to endure some severe short-term pains before reliefs from China can come into effect.

Yes, everyone needs money, but that still doesn't answer the question of how China can rapidly diversify it's fx reserves.
Buying as much precious and industrial metals as possible and ASAP for starters?
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Buying as much precious and industrial metals as possible and ASAP for starters?
China + Russia + Central Asia should use their strength to make an economic block for commodities produced in these countries.

They should heavily encourage usage of local currencies like yuan or ruble (doubt that they trust to use it) or others
This new block would control a significant world share of many minerals resources and agricultural goods.
 

caudaceus

Senior Member
Registered Member
Russian Ukrainians in Donbas and Crimea were fine with Russia.

I believe West Ukraine will be forced to sign on the dotted line for their own good. Once they accept that East Ukraine is gone they can go ahead and join EU/NATO. Otherwise they don't qualify due to territorial conflict.

Nobody will invest in West OR East Ukraine with a conflict on. I already showed how Ukrainian mismanagement of their economy caused it to stagnate for 30+ years. They can fight like Afghans, but do they want to live like Afghans for decades? Ukraine at peace was poorer than war torn Bosnia, what do you think their GDP per capita is now?

The only way they get even 0.1% hope of development is accepting Russia won so they can get money to rebuild and join EU.
I just checked Ukraine GDP per capita. Damn the country really poor. They have quite good heavy machine and aviation industry but only 50% GDP per capita of Belarus, a country that I almost know nothing. It's almost equal to Libya.
 
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