Discussing Biden's Potential China Policy

I wouldn't be worrying about TPP. If China isn't a member, it doesn't have to follow the rules. Members have to pay workers more than usual and their factories have to abide by environmental standards. How does that beat China who doesn't have to follow the rules? Are they going to tell members whom most have China as their number one customer to not trade with China? The US better cough up the difference they lose when China doesn't buy their products or it's not going to happen. What it's good for is the big countries' corporations can now rewrite the laws for lesser countries in a completely undemocratic way. That's the only benefit I can see for TPP without China.

AssassinsMace said:

I wouldn't be worrying about TPP. If China isn't a member, it doesn't have to follow the rules. Members have to pay workers more than usual and their factories have to abide by environmental standards. How does that beat China who doesn't have to follow the rules? Are they going to tell members whom most have China as their number one customer to not trade with China? The US better cough up the difference they lose when China doesn't buy their products or it's not going to happen. What it's good for is the big countries' corporations can now rewrite the laws for lesser countries in a completely undemocratic way. That's the only benefit I can see for TPP without China.

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It is quite simple. The whole idea for the TPP was this: all nations in the TPP would have no trade barriers while imposing tariffs on those nations not part of the TPP (i.e. China), and there would be an international court to trial cases about IP "intellectual property" and those courts would be above national laws. So you could basically claim someone stole your trade secrets or infringed your patents or whatever and shut that company out of the market. Countries could not invoke national emergency or anything like the case where India produced HIV medicine without paying for the patents so HIV patients could survive without the state or them getting deep into debt, lovely things like that.

AssassinsMace said:

I wouldn't be worrying about TPP. If China isn't a member, it doesn't have to follow the rules. Members have to pay workers more than usual and their factories have to abide by environmental standards. How does that beat China who doesn't have to follow the rules? Are they going to tell members whom most have China as their number one customer to not trade with China? The US better cough up the difference they lose when China doesn't buy their products or it's not going to happen. What it's good for is the big countries' corporations can now rewrite the laws for lesser countries in a completely undemocratic way. That's the only benefit I can see for TPP without China.

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Hi AssassinsMace,

Bingo!!! With the current situation, TPP is useless, nation had waken up, who will want to sell its product to a bankrupted country and export its problem to them.

gelgoog said:

It is quite simple. The whole idea for the TPP was this: all nations in the TPP would have no trade barriers while imposing tariffs on those nations not part of the TPP (i.e. China), and there would be an international court to trial cases about IP "intellectual property" and those courts would be above national laws. So you could basically claim someone stole your trade secrets or infringed your patents or whatever and shut that company out of the market. Countries could not invoke national emergency or anything like the case where India produced HIV medicine without paying for the patents so HIV patients could survive without the state or them getting deep into debt, lovely things like that.

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As with all "free trade agreements", it's never free. Free trade should be self-explanatory but it's a lie. That's why you see everyone individually negotiating with individual countries of membership in a free trade agreement. Each country basically negotiates something of their economies that's protected and is not included. Like Japan might say their rice industry is not included because rice is on the level of being sacred. That's also why they don't include China initially. In TPP countries can sue other countries if politics is used at another country's expense. China would be able to the US up the yin-yang but I'm sure that will be a part of the US's negotiation with China that it can sue China for it but China can't sue the US. I can only see that's why why smaller countries of TPP would agree to allow the US to essentially rewrite domestic laws which would favor larger countries with more prominent corporations. If China joined, smaller countries would have more power than China to negotiate. That's why China shouldn't join because that's what they're expecting to happen. Without China these smaller countries will get raped by bigger countries.

ansy1968 said:

Hi AssassinsMace,

Bingo!!! With the current situation, TPP is useless, nation had waken up, who will want to sell its product to a bankrupted country and export its problem to them.

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Americans were against it because they saw that part where TPP can rewrite a country's laws as foreign countries undermining US sovereignty. They couldn't say out loud it was so the US can rewrite laws in China without giving it away and then China would never join.

AssassinsMace said:

Americans were against it because they saw that part where TPP can rewrite a country's laws as foreign countries undermining US sovereignty. They couldn't say out loud it was so the US can rewrite laws in China without giving it away and then China would never join.

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Didn't get this part.
How is that undermining US sovereignty?

Nobonita Barua said:

Didn't get this part.
How is that undermining US sovereignty?

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Because Americans don't want foreigners writing the laws for their country. Also the officials in TPP who get to decide these things aren't even elected in any way. As some in the US argued, these positions will be filled by corporate representatives.

AssassinsMace said:

... If China joined, smaller countries would have more power than China to negotiate. That's why China shouldn't join because that's what they're expecting to happen. Without China these smaller countries will get raped by bigger countries.

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TPP is explicitly meant to exclude China. They wouldn't be able to join even if they wanted to. That was the whole point.
Same reason Russia isn't allowed into either NATO nor the EU. Russia requested admission more than once.

gelgoog said:

TPP is explicitly meant to exclude China. They wouldn't be able to join even if they wanted to. That was the whole point.
Same reason Russia isn't allowed into either NATO nor the EU. Russia requested admission more than once.

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How can they force China to abide by their rules is if it's a member. They think China doesn't want to be left out and will want to join and then therefore they can force China to follow their rules. They have no power if China is not a part of it. China's is most of the members' number one customer of their goods. If China doesn't buy from them, they lose most of the money they make from trade. How are they going to prevent China from not buying their products? Are they going to demand they can punish China while China can't do anything in retaliation? How are they going to prevent that?

Russia isn't China. Russia doesn't have the consumer power that China does. Why doesn't all the West and and their allies just drop all relations with China right now?

AssassinsMace said:

How can they force China to abide by their rules is if it's a member.

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Pardon that's if it's not a member.