CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Lol, that last part in the first picture about the head/overseer of the Liaoning project gritting his teeth at the size of the island and promising that their designed carrier island definitely was not gonna be that big.

In the 002 it did become smaller but not by much, but the one for 003 is very small considering it needs exhausts.
 

Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
Come now, I think PLAN and even hobbyist like us all understand that having a lift on the port side is for redundancy reasons. The point of Shilao demonstrating many CVV proposals was to show that nearly all of them insists on a lift on the port side, even for designs that call for two lifts. In the book he was showing there was only one proposal that had two lifts, both on the starboard side:
View attachment 91066
Two lifts and two catapults.

[snip]
Just like point out that PA 76 was a French design.

It should also be noted that the MN has consistently been adopting the 2+2 philosophy (2 catapults + 2 lifts) for all of their CVs past, present and future.

Every iteration from the Clems to the CDG and onwards to the PANG has been, and will continue to be configured with 2 starboard lifts (though Lift 1 on the Clemenceau was in the middle, rear of the foredeck, which PA 76 was presumably drawn up to attempt to address, the layout of which was of course eventually adopted by CDG), even for a 75,000 tonner like the PANG, itself not that much less massive than 003.

PA.jpg

At the risk of re-treading a similar debate from pages back, I'd still point out that different navies have different doctrines for their respective carrier programmes, whether it be operationally or due to cost. The naval doctrines adopted by the USN throughout the decades as reflected in their carrier designs, which the PLAN has no doubt studied extensively and exhaustively, may not necessarily apply to the PLAN's own operational needs just because China is now in the business of building CATOBAR supercarriers, and that China's current stage of carrier development has reached/is reaching peer status with that of the US.

While @Blitzo may be keen to posit that 003 is not even the final form of what the PLAN may envision for their serial-production ready 100,000 ton nuclear variant that is expected to centre around a 3-lift + 4-cat config so as to bring it on par with the 'benchmark' as established by the Ford-class, and I'd be ready to agree that he's most likely correct, I think it's also worth bearing in mind the USN has spent over six decades (and counting) of designing, building and operating nuclear carriers with 4 lifts (longer still if we were to start from the advent of 'supercarriers' that began with the Forrestals), which had long been accepted as an well-optimised layout for a US supercarrier... until the Ford came along with her 3 lifts.

Naturally the question becomes: "Was the 4th lift superfluous all along?"

And naturally the justification becomes: "The flight deck has been 'optimised' by the 3 lifts."

If after more than 60 years of operating CVNs the Navy can still find a reason to delete a major feature like a 4,400 sq. ft and 120 ton elevator in order to 'optimise' a supercarrier in serial-production for over 50 years, what else can they add or omit? What capability has the boat gained/lost from doing so? Can the Navy then claim there isn't room for improvement still?

I would think if one were to entertain the notion of a 'gold standard' in lift/catapult numbers and placements, the Ford-class may have a couple more decades yet to go before it can confidently claim its design is representative of what an "optimised" 100,000 tonner should look like.

So I'm of the opinion the PLAN will no doubt look to the vast experience of the US carrier programme as accrued by the trials and tribulations over many decades to inform their own approach to designing carriers that are best suited for China, for threat environments that are unique to China, as opposed to pursuing some sort of a vain goal of building analogues to 100,000 ton class US supercarriers for a reason as simple as: "American supercarriers are heretofore peerless, state-of-the-art and best-in-class, so a Chinese Ford is what China should build".

We can all debate the pros and cons of 2 lifts vs 3, or 3 cats vs 4. At the end of the day only the PLAN knows if they're actually giving up capabilities or not.

All that is not to say the PLAN shouldn't emulate the USN where it makes sense to. The next Chinese CV, be it another 003-pattern or a nuclear kind, could as well have an additional lift and catapult if the PLAN judges it advantageous to have them, and I would have no issue accepting the 003 as configured was a result of give-and-take for the PLAN, itself a process that was governed and limited by understandings and compromises from a time well before the first steel was cut over 6 years ago, before 002 was even launched.

Or, the next CV could as well retain a similar 3 cats + 2 lifts layout to 003, perhaps with appropriate positioning on an expected larger deck with a re-positioned island if nuclear, and personally I wouldn't be so surprised with it either.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member

1st Photo: (I assume that he is in the midst of replying to someone else)
However, the implications (brought forth by) the 3rd vessel (Fujian) are very big, I will classify them into the following:

1. Based on the ship displacement, speaking of vehicle-carrying platforms such as aircraft carriers, the displacement has a direct relation to the effectiveness of the platform. In other words, the larger the displacement, the more carrier-based planes that could be carried, and (I believe that) this is a very easy-to-understand fact;
2. The benefits of flat deck compared to ski-jump deck is self-explanatory. The superiority of the flat deck carrier for the operations of carrier-based aircraft is virtually unmatched compared to that of the ski-jump deck carrier;
3. The implications of carrier-based aircraft taking off using ski-jump or catapult-launched have already been described above. The essence of this question points directly to the key issue of the combat capability of the aircraft carrier;
4. The great advancements of the 3rd aircraft carrier (Fujian) which are unknown to the public lies in the advancement of its shipboard electronic information (warfare) system, which I believe has even surpassed that of the American carriers.

One more interesting story: When discussing the Liaoning carrier with (presumably) the chief (designer/engineer) of Liaoning back then, he has shown a helpless look on his face at the massive size of the island. He gritted his teeth and said, "The island of the aircraft carriers that we design would never have such a massive island". Until today, I still have a very fond memory of it. I don't have a pair of eyes that are like a measuring equipment, but visually, our ship designers have been true to their words.

2nd Photo:
I know that something that is even better is already on its way.

Sorry for any inaccuracies in the above translations, as I was doing them in a rush.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Would be interesting to find out if this is an accurate description of the constellation of the two different EMALS.

In the American system, an exhausted energy store can be replaced by a still full energy store. With the assumed Chinese system, the aircraft to be launched would have to be brought to another catapult.

View attachment 91072

The first diagram is how you would want the system to look, in order to build in redundancy.

The problem is that the Ford carrier doesn't have any electrical isolation switches to disconnect a single catapult. Instead, they have to disconnect all or none of the catapults. So when a single catapult needs to be to be reset, fixed or undergo maintenance - all launch operations have to stop.
 

Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
Would be interesting to find out if this is an accurate description of the constellation of the two different EMALS.

In the American system, an exhausted energy store can be replaced by a still full energy store. With the assumed Chinese system, the aircraft to be launched would have to be brought to another catapult.

View attachment 91072

Unless this?

Unbenannt2.jpg
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
It is fair to say that it is probably different and intuitively you'd think they probably would have arranged it in a manner to try to avoid whatever flaws were a part of the USN EMALS and power management system on the Ford, but there's really no reason to overreach with such confidence yet for such a vital subsystem.

I think it would be safer to hold our horses on making such a broad proclamation without at least some credible rumours about how Fujian's EM catapults and associated power management systems are arranged.


A much safer and more defensible statement is that Fujian's EM catapults and power management system is likely different to that of the USN EMALS, but we do not know the full extent of how it is different and whatever strengths or flaws the two respective types may have compared to each other.

Electrical circuit breakers or isolation switches in a power electronics design isn't anything special.

In the realm of civilian power electronics, China is far ahead of the USA in terms of technology and widespread deployment at every level from transmission lines down to each home and electric car. All would incorporate circuit breakers and isolation switches. And I suspect that the civilian sector leads in terms of technology in China with the military piggybacking off this.

Given this situation and the prior knowledge of the Ford EMALs design flaws, I stand by my statement that it would be incredible for Chinese EM cats to have been designed with the same elementary flaws that the Ford has.

And given how critical the Ford EMALs design flaws is, any half-decent design which avoided this fundamental error would be a better technology.

We also have to consider that the Fujian carrier was launched some 9 years after the Ford carrier. Given the advancements in power electronics over the past 9 years, you would also expect better tech to have been applied to Fujian.

So in all, "I think it is fair (assessment) to say that the Chinese Navy is installing a more advanced EMALS system than the US Navy has with the Ford."
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Either the American system is flawed beyond something that is simple, which China could benefit from espionage or it's a simple mistake and China would not benefit from stealing the technology. Very unsurprising that an American would claim that both the mistake made was simple and that the reason the Chinese avoided the mistake was not because of engineering competence, but rather because of espionage.
There are many sub components to building a whole carrier, while US has spent more time building carrier hulls, China has been a leader in electromagnetic warfare applications for a long time.

Solutions to problems can be more rapidly found when you have a tech advantage, it means more institutional knowledge to consult, more engineers and more researchers with higher quality tools and data.

I would guess that similar to the field of hypersonic and space weapons, America simply lacked talent to bring the EMALS online in a timely manner. People need to be educated in order to invent. Pumping huge subsidies into arms megacorps works well to create some types of weapons based on already known principles. But when the development needs theoretical research, you need to do more than just throwing money, you need to educate a whole generation and sponsor civilian research.

To make it clear I'm not entirely trash talking the US model of development, for example, they're far better at procuring large amounts of ships and stealth fighters, factors which are extremely useful for actually winning wars, which developments based on theoretical research is not always. I'd rather have 1000 cheap cruise missiles with poor CEP than 1 sniper accurate hypersonic missile, the latter is not gonna win any wars.
 
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