CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[Anlsvrthng]

To admit, I'm slowly loosing my patience. Not only that you ignore a reply to now already three direct quotes with a clear and simple question in which you should explain WHAT is your intention, but now you are again derailing this thread with another theory out of the blue by claiming "the Chinese supply chain hasn't got experience with big capital ship engines" and as such hinting "this is not a carrier"!?

Again .. what is your intention here in this thread and even more with all these IMO off topic or at least only tangential relevant issues?
In barely any of these posts is a direct relationship to the 003 carrier explained. You remain vague even after direct requests ... and as such I can rate this only as trolling.

Again: Please answer the already three times posted question, explain what is your intention to bring up this issue ... or it will be deleted.

Take this as a warning. we are now again already more than one page of posts beyond anything directly related to the carrier.

Interesting question : )


My intention is to understand the status, and short/medium term future of the Chinese naval shipbuilding industry , and its capability to field 100k capital ships.

China thriving to build big carrier ships, probably to get control over the critical shipping lanes.

This can be a definitive moment - China can be the third nation to achieve the capability to close/ keep open shipping lanes around the oceans, and the effect of that on the world financial/goods flow can not be underestimated.


The Jingnan shipyard new extensions that (probably) targeting the carrier building program, and the capital ship that (probably) the kneel of a carrier is the second (maybe first ) interesting industrial project about a nation military development, after (before) the Kazan submarine .

There was many interesting comment /data in this topics, many as answer for my posts, and I shared all interesting data point that found as well.

I am happy to discuss deep engineering topic about the manufacturing /design process as well, however there is not so much person for that (even on a military forum )

 

[Tam]

I took few minutes to compare the powertrain performance of different warships, considering diesel (gas turbine) electric, geared gas , geared turbine and so on.

Just to see what could be expected for the new carrier.

Quite interesting.

kW/ton .

Burke : 7.96 kW/ton - geared gas turbine
Zumwalt : 4.87 kW/ton - gas turbine - electric hybrid powertrain
Iowa class battleship : 3.25 kW/ton - conventional boiler - geared steam
Kuznetsov : 2,72 kW/ton - conventional boiler - geared steam
Nimitz: 1.9 kW/ton - nuclear boiler - geared steam
Yamoto battleship : 1.69 kW/ton - conventional boiler - geared steam
Queen Elisabeth carrier : 1.23 kW/ton - diesel/turbine electric hybrid powertrain

The basic machine design in work, to use generator-motor instead of gearbox cost lot of mass, and decrease the warship performance.



Checking these data it should be quite demanding / complex to design the propulsion system of a carrier sized ship.
Without extensive experience in the powertrain design it could be very difficult.

They have been making ships with gross tonnages of over 200,000 tons like McDonald's is pounding out big macs. They have access to not just their own state subsidized development, but IP and licenses from various foreign companies. MTU, MAN, Wartsilla engines are among the many engines made in China that were licensed there.

Steam turbines of 40 to 50MW capacity would be small potatoes for companies that build as much as 1000MW.

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The powerful serial production capacity for typical 300/600MW units, 1000MW class USC steam turbine, over 1000MW nuclear turbine and heavy duty gas turbine has been formed in the Company now. The annual production capacity of the Company is 30,000MW (equivalent), accounting for about 1/3 of the total annual output of home-made steam turbines for power generation in China. Its products have been sold throughout 29 provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions in China and exported to some countries in Asia, Africa, Europe and South America. The units produced by the Company enjoy the appreciation from extensive customers thanks to the advanced technology, flexible start-stop, safety & reliability, high efficiency and excellent after-sale service.
The powerful serial production capacity for typical 300/600MW units, 1000MW class USC steam turbine, over 1000MW nuclear turbine and heavy duty gas turbine has been formed in the Company now. The annual production capacity of the Company is 30,000MW (equivalent), accounting for about 1/3 of the total annual output of home-made steam turbines for power generation in China. Its products have been sold throughout 29 provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions in China and exported to some countries in Asia, Africa, Europe and South America. The units produced by the Company enjoy the appreciation from extensive customers thanks to the advanced technology, flexible start-stop, safety & reliability, high efficiency and excellent after-sale service.

GE's and Westinghouse's original portfolio was also on power generation. But obviously that did not take long to extend that to marine powerplants, and even submarine ones.

This is assuming you are not using QD400 (40 MW gas turbine) and R0110 (110MW gas turbine) that was developed by Shenyang Liming.

R0110 certainly exists, and there were patents filed with it.

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And papers written for its application with power plants many years ago.

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As far as China is concerned, the cat is out of the bag many years ago for designing large scale power turbines.

While I do not think you need a 110MW gas turbine for a carrier, a 40 to 50MW gas turbine would do if you are not thinking of using a steam turbine for it.

 

[Deino]

Interesting question : )


My intention is to understand the status, and short/medium term future of the Chinese naval shipbuilding industry , and its capability to field 100k capital ships.

China thriving to build big carrier ships, probably to get control over the critical shipping lanes.

This can be a definitive moment - China can be the third nation to achieve the capability to close/ keep open shipping lanes around the oceans, and the effect of that on the world financial/goods flow can not be underestimated.


The Jingnan shipyard new extensions that (probably) targeting the carrier building program, and the capital ship that (probably) the kneel of a carrier is the second (maybe first ) interesting industrial project about a nation military development, after (before) the Kazan submarine .

There was many interesting comment /data in this topics, many as answer for my posts, and I shared all interesting data point that found as well.

I am happy to discuss deep engineering topic about the manufacturing /design process as well, however there is not so much person for that (even on a military forum )

But then please be clear with your statements and say what you think - regardless "i think think cannot be a carrier because of ..." - instead of posting long calculations and considerations or avoiding to answer a question.

To admit, we are still - also since @Tam once again replied - so much deep into general propulsion that I think to separate this again.

 

[Richard Santos]

But the USA hasn't changed the carriers power trains since the 30s, only replaced the boilers with boiling water reactors.

Not true.

But if it were true, then the logic of the rest of your post would be questionable to say the least. Given the fact that Chinese have ready access to a whole 80 years worth of additional progress in material science, computational power and technique, and fabrication technology, as well as 80 years worth of relevant technical literature from a collective world wide marine industry over what the steam plant mavens of the USN had back in 1930s, the PLAN ought to be able to delegate the design of a steam plant for their new carrier to remedial students at their technical schools and the fabrication to apprentices operating CNC machinery and still produce a power plant at least competitive with steam plants in US carriers.

 

[Intrepid]

Not true.

What has changed?

 

[Jura The idiot]

not sure why Deino didn't share these here (

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):

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·

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And another amazing set of CGs showing a glimpse to the future PLAN 003 aircraft carrier (CV-187). (Artwork by @西葛西造舰军事CG from Weibo)

 

[Deino]

not sure why Deino didn't share these here ....

Since I'm just just decorating the Christmas tree

 

[Tam]

Good that the CG artwork is using the Wuhu mockup designs.

 

[Tam]

That CGI is amazing work. Amazing, really. The guy spend a lot of time and effort on the detail and should be commended for it. I have two possible nitpicks.

The Type 364 radar appears on both sides fore and aft of the island of Liaoning and Shandong. The way the Wuhu mock up is done, there is no room for two Type 364 radars like it did on the other two carriers. In my opinion, the Type 364 would be deleted off from 003, and there is no point in introducing a single one on the aft of the island. That space is more likely for a SATCOM. One good indication that the Type 364 might be retired from future PLAN warships is that it has been replaced on the Type 075.

The Type 364s would also have been made redundant by the X-band radars you see here. These X-band panels are likely the same ones from the Type 055 which has already deleted the Type 364. With the S-band panels below the X-band panels, you have a dual band setup here.

Below it, you would see two Type 348s or 349s that act as landing radars. These are also on X-band, so I am not sure if these would be retained in 003 due to already having the X-band AESA. These landing radars are present in the Liaoning, Shandong and 075.

One thing to note is that 003 might use the large ECM panel off from the Type 055. The CGI captures it, and this is consistent with the mock up. The panel is situated on top of the large '18' lettering on the side of island.

 

[asif iqbal]

Don’t like the island

it resembles the CV-16 and CV-17 too much

should not have the window decks sticking out like that more stealth required

also mid deck observation post sticking out at the front total no no