CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[kwaigonegin]

His words were:
The 3rd ship is very likely being nuclear powered.
The 4th ship is certainly nuclear powered.

Assuming the 3rd is NOT a CVN, does that mean it'll be a one off carrier?
It'll be odd for PLAN to be operating totally 3 different types of carriers going forward in the next 5-25 years but like you said the USS Enterprise was one off as well! Like the USN, PLAN has to start from scratch also.
The caveat is Enterprise was NEVER intended to be a one off ship. It just ended up being the only girl. I believe half a dozen or more of her class was initially planned.

 

[Intrepid]

Enterprise had the handicap that there was only one for submarines dimensioned nuclear propulsion. That's why eight (!) Reactors were built in the ship. Nimitz and Ford only have two reactors each.

 

[taxiya]

Assuming the 3rd is NOT a CVN, does that mean it'll be a one off carrier?
It'll be odd for PLAN to be operating totally 3 different types of carriers going forward in the next 5-25 years but like you said the USS Enterprise was one off as well! Like the USN, PLAN has to start from scratch also.

It will be one off if the 3rd is not CVN. I agree, it is not preferable outcome if turns out to be true. I think PLAN is trying to avoid that situation, therefor the seemingly delay. CV 002 was rumored to be a stop gap that was not in the initial plan. PLAN may choose to delay for a few years (002 is already part of that delay) to go directly to CVN, like (IF) USN skipped Enterprise (18 years later instead of 6 years later after USS Nautilus).

Enterprise had the handicap that there was only one for submarines dimensioned nuclear propulsion. That's why eight (!) Reactors were built in the ship. Nimitz and Ford only have two reactors each.

I think PLAN would try everything to avoid that handicap and complicity by waiting a few more years. Considering that it has been 48 years after the first 091 sub and the recent fast development of Chinese civilian nuclear technology, it is about right time that China comes up with a mature adequate nuclear propulsion (2 reactors) for CVN. It will be 48 years vs. (American) 18 years from first operational sub reactor to first adequate CVN reactor.

 

[kwaigonegin]

It will be one off if the 3rd is not CVN. I agree, it is not preferable outcome if turns out to be true. I think PLAN is trying to avoid that situation, therefor the seemingly delay. CV 002 was rumored to be a stop gap that was not in the initial plan. PLAN may choose to delay for a few years (002 is already part of that delay) to go directly to CVN, like (IF) USN skipped Enterprise (18 years later instead of 6 years later after USS Nautilus).


I think PLAN would try everything to avoid that handicap and complicity by waiting a few more years. Considering that it has been 48 years after the first 091 sub and the recent fast development of Chinese civilian nuclear technology, it is about right time that China comes up with a mature adequate nuclear propulsion (2 reactors) for CVN. It will be 48 years vs. (American) 18 years from first operational sub reactor to first adequate CVN reactor.

I believe the potential reduction from 8 to 2 reactors (at the time) played a not so insignificant role in curtailing the class from original planned 6 to just the lone Enterprise.
While no one knew about the future nimitz class when Enterprise was conceived, I believe technical folks at the highest levels wisely predicted that nuclear reactors for future CVNs could be reduced with the advancement in nuclear propulsions.
Sure enough a lil over 10 years later the Nimitz class came to being. If USN had built 6 or more Enterprise class, the Nimitz class would likely never have happened!

 

[Richard Santos]

No, massive cost overruns with the first nuclear Enterprise doomed her 4 planned sister ships. To mitigate the cost over runs the Enterprise herself was completed without her intended defensive tartar missile battery. The return to conventional fossil power for the next 2 carriers were a cost saving measure.

The Nimitz class wasn’t originally planned to be a 10 ship class. Only 2 were originally planned. After the first 2 were approved the 3rd was a massive struggle. In the aftermath of the loss of Vietnam war it really looked the third Nimitz was going to be the last in the line of super carriers that started with Forrestal, and the USN was going to abandon the ideal of giant carriers that can carry large wings of big aircraft fully competitive with and can project power in the face of the latest Soviet land based tactical aircraft. Instead it was return to medium sized 50-60K ton carriers that carry aircraft sufficient for sea control away from land based air threat. But gradually the force project wing regained ascendency and gradually more Nimitz class ships were added one at a time.

 

[taxiya]

I believe the potential reduction from 8 to 2 reactors (at the time) played a not so insignificant role in curtailing the class from original planned 6 to just the lone Enterprise.
While no one knew about the future nimitz class when Enterprise was conceived, I believe technical folks at the highest levels wisely predicted that nuclear reactors for future CVNs could be reduced with the advancement in nuclear propulsions.
Sure enough a lil over 10 years later the Nimitz class came to being. If USN had built 6 or more Enterprise class, the Nimitz class would likely never have happened!

USN did what was best they can at that time. For them, everything is a trail and nothing is certain, it could be 6 Enterprise instead. But PLAN is lucky that USN's experience and proven choice is right here, so PLAN can skip a few middle steps, another advantage of followers to close the gap faster than forerunners.

The bottom line and therefor natural conclusion from a technical perspective is that 8 reactors are too complicated and bigger in foot print and run higher risk of malfunction, 1 is risky of no backup, 2 is the only logical choice. I think the US engineers knew it well, their making of Enterprise is some how a compromise in the same way as PLAN's CV-16, 002 and probably 003 before the perfect CVN.

 

[latenlazy]

My respond was to the original post about that so call comment/post made by the big but maybe not so big shrimp. 6 full flat deck carriers is certainly likely and expected. That's not the gist of my argument. My was in terms of timeline and the retention of CV16, CV17 even AFTER they have these 6 carriers already.

I do not believe or agree with the training carrier concept either. I think it's actually insulting to PLAN for the need for a 'training' carrier' after over 2 DECADES and 6 CV/CVNs.

Let's just say that if PLAN of 2040 with 6 CVNs still needs Liaoning to train people on carrier operations they are doing something really wrong and seriously unproductive!

I didn’t say they would *need* the Liaoning to train personnel, just that they could use the Liaoning to train personnel rather than decommission it entirely. Though I actually think of the potential three or four carriers that might become obsolete in twenty years the Liaoning is most likely to be decommissioned straight up much earlier than the others because its hull is actually much older. My comment about downshifting roles applies more to CV-17, CV-18, and maybe, if CV-18 isn’t a one off, CV-19. I would not be surprised if CV-16 gets converted into a floating museum.

 

[steve_rolfe]

Why do some here persist in saying the Liaoning is only a training carrier...........when it is clearly not. Even the Chinese recently stated that the Liaoning is now a fully fledged operational combat aircraft carrier. Read the news! Please keep upto date.

 

[Twix101]

First of all and most important of all, I was only trying to clarify a few things by translation, I did not believe or disbelieve what the source said.

My opinion is that it is always a serious challenge for anybody to do something for the first time, but everyone has to have a first time. Even the mighty USN had to do it with Enterprise. Because of this, I won't be surprised if the 3rd CV turned out to be nuclear powered at all.

It is not only a leap forward in technological sense but also on a strategic level. PLAN or CMC is pushing hard to go global as soon as possible. This has to be carefully monitored along with the J-XY program.

The 2020's will be the decade when China militarily goes global, this is coming along with the existing 071, 055 and the future LHD.

 

[plawolf]

2020 was a date set long ago. Recent seismic shifts in US politics could have significant and profound impacts on the PLAN immediate and medium term force structures.

When the risk of war went from remote possibility to not so remote, or even likely, you would be a fool to not adjust your defence planning to take that into account.

Ideally, the PLAN would want to jump straight to CVN supercarriers, but if Chinese analysists and strategists feel that the possibility of war within the next 5 years has significantly increased, it does no good to have those CVNs come online 10 years down the road.

In which case, efficiency may well be sacrificed for security, with more 001As or a intermediary conventionally powered EMAL carrier class added, much like the Kitty Hawk, that will serve as a stopgap hedge against possible conflict before China’s CVNs come online.