CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[jobjed]

Why are you so sure that PLAN has got nothing re Ulyanovsk after they got everything the Ukrainians had on Varyag? The Ukrainians were so cash starved that they were willing to sell everything they had, including Su-27 prototype, X-55, even Admiral Lobov cruiser was on offer

Because if they had, pop3 would have mentioned it in one of his numerous posts delving into the background of China's carrier research. He mentioned nothing of the Ulyanovsk. Additionally, 701st Institute never got the blueprints of the ex-Varyag. People keep on saying China got 20 tonnes of blueprints but hell if the PLAN knows where they ended up. Wherever the blueprints went, if ever they even existed, they never got to 701st Institute, which drew up the plans to the Liaoning and 002 independently.

China didn't even get the Varyag's blueprints, what makes you think they got the Ulyanovsk's?

 

[snake65]

Because if they had, pop3 would have mentioned it in one of his numerous posts delving into the background of China's carrier research. He mentioned nothing of the Ulyanovsk. Additionally, 701st Institute never got the blueprints of the ex-Varyag. People keep on saying China got 20 tonnes of blueprints but hell if the PLAN knows where they ended up. Wherever the blueprints went, if ever they even existed, they never got to 701st Institute, which drew up the plans to the Liaoning and 002 independently.

China didn't even get the Varyag's blueprints, what makes you think they got the Ulyanovsk's?

The designer has one set of blueprints, the builder has another. They are not identical and builder's set is not even called blueprints. There is no question that Ukrainians had them. I don't see the point for Ukrainians to keep the blueprints if they sell the ship. I am also sure that builder's set for Ulyanovsk was up for sale as well. If China hasn't got it means wasn't interested at that time.

Let's also take a look at the resources required for "drawing up of the plans". It took a year to produce blueprints to copy B-29 bomber in 1946 in Russia, dismantling all parts, measuring and cataloging them. And that was just a WW2 bomber. Varyag arrived in March 2002 and already in 2005 reconstruction started. 701st Institute was working 72 hours a day?

Mind, I am not maintaining that 701st Institute did nothing. But to say that there was no Ukrainian input at all is another extreme. Truth always lies somewhere between.

 

[vincent]

The designer has one set of blueprints, the builder has another. They are not identical and builder's set is not even called blueprints. There is no question that Ukrainians had them. I don't see the point for Ukrainians to keep the blueprints if they sell the ship. I am also sure that builder's set for Ulyanovsk was up for sale as well. If China hasn't got it means wasn't interested at that time.

Let's also take a look at the resources required for "drawing up of the plans". It took a year to produce blueprints to copy B-29 bomber in 1946 in Russia, dismantling all parts, measuring and cataloging them. And that was just a WW2 bomber. Varyag arrived in March 2002 and already in 2005 reconstruction started. 701st Institute was working 72 hours a day?

Mind, I am not maintaining that 701st Institute did nothing. But to say that there was no Ukrainian input at all is another extreme. Truth always lies somewhere between.

And you based on your conjectures on what?

 

[jobjed]

The designer has one set of blueprints, the builder has another. They are not identical and builder's set is not even called blueprints. There is no question that Ukrainians had them. I don't see the point for Ukrainians to keep the blueprints if they sell the ship. I am also sure that builder's set for Ulyanovsk was up for sale as well. If China hasn't got it means wasn't interested at that time.

Let's also take a look at the resources required for "drawing up of the plans". It took a year to produce blueprints to copy B-29 bomber in 1946 in Russia, dismantling all parts, measuring and cataloging them. And that was just a WW2 bomber. Varyag arrived in March 2002 and already in 2005 reconstruction started. 701st Institute was working 72 hours a day?

Mind, I am not maintaining that 701st Institute did nothing. But to say that there was no Ukrainian input at all is another extreme. Truth always lies somewhere between.

The plans for the hull were drawn up in a bit more than a year, and the overall blueprints including the rebuilt and newbuilt sections were completed after three years. That is the direct testimony of a retired PLAN technical officer.

I don't need you to tell me what China can and cannot do.

Let me reiterate. China got no technical documentation of the Varyag from Ukraine. Whether it was because Ukraine couldn't find where they were stored or whether China wasn't interested, I don't know. The fact remains, China didn't get them. Neither is there any indication China got anything related to the Ulyanovsk and seeing as they didn't even get Varyag's documentation, the notion they got Ulyanovsk's is improbable. If you believe China received Ulyanovsk documentation, show me proof, not conjecture.

 

[snake65]

The plans for the hull were drawn up in a bit more than a year, and the overall blueprints including the rebuilt and newbuilt sections were completed after three years. That is the direct testimony of a retired PLAN technical officer.

I don't need you to tell me what China can and cannot do.

Let me reiterate. China got no technical documentation of the Varyag from Ukraine. Whether it was because Ukraine couldn't find where they were stored or whether China wasn't interested, I don't know. The fact remains, China didn't get them. Neither is there any indication China got anything related to the Ulyanovsk and seeing as they didn't even get Varyag's documentation, the notion they got Ulyanovsk's is improbable. If you believe China received Ulyanovsk documentation, show me proof, not conjecture.

Well, retired workers of the Ukrainian yard, including former chief engineer, testified that blueprints were part of the deal. Of course, what China did with them, did they use them or not, is completely China's business. My conjectures are noo worse than your's.
I have no intention to tell you anything about China being able or not. But I have a pretty good knowledge of Soviet Union and Ukraine as former part of it.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I hate to butt in into the discussion but both you maybe right
Xu Zhengpin in the interview with SCMP did mention that he carted off 40 ton of documentation To china
But we don't know what is the quality of these document Anyway most likely missed a lot fo more important document Then it has to be converted to 3D computer aided design which the Chinese do it themselves. It is monumental job by itself and the drawing mean nothingif you don't have the underlying technology like all the subsystem which the Chinese design it themselves because we know Varyag is just bare hull with propulsion system devoid of any subsystem

It is in no way diminishing Chinese achievement and hard work in getting a rusty derelecit boat inot functioning aircraft carrier. It take them almost a decade of hard work
Anyway it is water under the bridge Now China has the capability of designing any carier and Varyag just shorten the process by 2 decades
The Varyag escapade must be one of the most successfull Chinese intelligence ruse and disinformation campaign. Telling the world it just a scrap yard material by the time they realized what is going on it is too late. It is amazing story of determination and effort of one patriotic overseas Chinese bussinessman single handedly force to change the course of PLAN with his effort and determination grit and gumption,personal sacrifices salute to Xu Zhengpin
Reference

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Xu was so impressed when touring the ship that he resolved to purchase it using his personal funds. The previous year, Xu had borrowed HK$230 million from a Hong Kong business friend, spending HK$6 million to create Chong Lot as a Macau

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. He described a harrowing negotiation in

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, lubricated by bribery and liquor, which helped to arrange victory at the auction. As a precaution, he shipped 40 tonnes of the carrier's blueprints to China overland in eight trucks.

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[asif iqbal]

Definitely a great cover story for PLAN and changed the course of carrier procurement and maybe even history

 

[kwaigonegin]

I hate to butt in into the discussion but both you maybe right
Xu Zhengpin in the interview with SCMP did mention that he carted off 40 ton of documentation To china
But we don't know what is the quality of these document Anyway most likely missed a lot fo more important document Then it has to be converted to 3D computer aided design which the Chinese do it themselves. It is monumental job by itself and the drawing mean nothingif you don't have the underlying technology like all the subsystem which the Chinese design it themselves because we know Varyag is just bare hull with propulsion system devoid of any subsystem

It is in no way diminishing Chinese achievement and hard work in getting a rusty derelecit boat inot functioning aircraft carrier. It take them almost a decade of hard work
Anyway it is water under the bridge Now China has the capability of designing any carier and Varyag just shorten the process by 2 decades
The Varyag escapade must be one of the most successfull Chinese intelligence ruse and disinformation campaign. Telling the world it just a scrap yard material by the time they realized what is going on it is too late. It is amazing story of determination and effort of one patriotic overseas Chinese bussinessman single handedly force to change the course of PLAN with his effort and determination grit and gumption,personal sacrifices salute to Xu Zhengpin
Reference

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Xu was so impressed when touring the ship that he resolved to purchase it using his personal funds. The previous year, Xu had borrowed HK$230 million from a Hong Kong business friend, spending HK$6 million to create Chong Lot as a Macau

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. He described a harrowing negotiation in

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, lubricated by bribery and liquor, which helped to arrange victory at the auction. As a precaution, he shipped 40 tonnes of the carrier's blueprints to China overland in eight trucks.

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As they say, luck is preparation meets opportunity. Chinese carrier ambitions would have been stymied and retarded by at least a decade and most likely two if not for the purchase of Varyag. I believe that the national psyche towards carrier aviation was also accelerated with the acquisition and launching of Liaoning. The growing economy just made things much easier. Remember how proud China was as a nation when Liaoning was launched?

Indirectly, it most certainly accelerated the exponential growth of PLAN as we've seen in the last 5-10 years! instead of thinking about building a destroyer or a frigate here and there they are now thinking in terms of CSGs and CVs, LHDs, LHAs etc.

Sometimes you just need that big spark to go from walking to jogging to sprinting. I believe Varyag/Liaoning was that catalyst for PLAN

 

[latenlazy]

Simply since it gives some the feeling of getting confirmed that the Chinese are not able to develop anything on their own.

It's exactly the same issue - as exemplified by our own @Bltizo (aka @Blitzo) concerning the J-20's stealth capabilities: On the one side it is labeled a copy based on stolen data acquired via espionage from LM and second it cannot be a by true stealth aircraft since Chinese engineers lack the full understanding of stealth and it has a lousy manufacturing quality:



via:

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Do I not get any credit?

 

[Deino]

Do I not get any credit?

Pardon if I missed something ... but right now it's a bit tough at home.