CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[taxiya]

OK, let's see, wich PLAN Fleet is closest to Strait of Malacca and Indian Ocean ( aka Chinese energetic lifeline )? Wich Fleet has only semi-free exit towards open Pacific ( not blocked by Japan, S. Korea and Taiwan )? Wich Fleet has highest probability to use carrier in real combat operations?

IMO, that's South Sea Fleet.

hmm, I never objected South Sea Fleet having CVs, did I? So what is your point? I actually did not object any fleet having CV.

And having carrier based in Qingdao is, IMHO unnecesarry, because carriers from Sanya can quickly sail into a Yellow Sea if necesarry ( 1 or 2 days of sailing ) and it's much closer to it's presumed main area of operations ( SCS, Strait of Malacca and Indian ocean ).

Well, PLAN thinks differently than you. And they own the CVs.

Also, areas in Yellow sea and ECS are too small for efficient use of carrier. Any eventual conflict in that area ( like Senkaku's ) is easily handled with ground-based aviation ( 350 km from Chinese mainland ), while Spratley's are about 1000+ km from Hainan ( so there's need for carrier there ). Same thing for any conflict about Taiwan.

Once again, I never objected these kind of points because I never objected South Sea Fleet having CVs.

Any use of aircraft carrier as defence against US aircraft in S. Korea IMHO isn't serious idea, so please let's return to serious discussion.

well, to the east side of yellow sea, China's furthest defense line for Beijing is Liaoning peninsular, that is some 500km. That is nothing for possible F-22 or F-35 attack. It is not a very good idea to use CV in this case, but it is better than nothing. Of course, North fleet having CV is not limited to defending Beijing, but more than that, so we don't need to stick to this idea.

Over all, I sense that you are arguing against something that we actually agree with.

Our difference is that I do not agree with this statement of yours, I quote

So, I would expect a single squadron/division for both carriers ( presumably South China Sea Fleet, they don't need carriers in other two fleets ).

Am I right in understanding you? And my point is that all the fleets need CVs for different mission areas.

 

[Deino]

And now the sensor mast ...

 

[Sczepan]

PLAN built a carrier base in Qingdao, an expensive project, because it thought is was a good idea to have such a base there. ....

and also PLAN built a carrier base in Sanya ....
both are near SSN-Bases, and to defend these Bases the Admiral Kuznetsov was built ....

 

[abc123]

And my point is that all the fleets need CVs for different mission areas.

Any my is that they dont.

Especially North Fleet doesen't need them. Both the North Sea Fleet and East Fleet are ( or will be in future, at least until when/if Taiwan is reintegrated ) basicly brown-sea fleets. For fulfilling their main duties they don't need carriers.

Southern Fleet needs them very much and IMHO they are ( ane even more, they will become ) real High Seas Fleet of China.

Of course, once China has 5-6-7 carriers, they will probably send a few of them ( older like 001A ) in all fleets, but until then...

 

[Jamekie]

Any my is that they dont.

Especially North Fleet doesen't need them. Both the North Sea Fleet and East Fleet are ( or will be in future, at least until when/if Taiwan is reintegrated ) basicly brown-sea fleets. For fulfilling their main duties they don't need carriers.

Southern Fleet needs them very much and IMHO they are ( ane even more, they will become ) real High Seas Fleet of China.

Of course, once China has 5-6-7 carriers, they will probably send a few of them ( older like 001A ) in all fleets, but until then...

Sorry to butt in but aren't you ignoring the pacific? Having the ability to engage the US outside of Critical first island chain In my humble opinion is critical, allowing the US to have complete control of the first island chain during peace and war time means US vassels have the ability to contain the chinese navy and navy air force in a similar fashion to their use the navy and marines during the vietnam war.

The main strategic advantage of the East sea fleet will only come into play if china could dominate okinawa in times of conflic, thus releasing the eastt fleet to meet any reinforced USN towards guam. I do believe that whne taiwan is eventually "neutralised", the east sea or new pacific fleet will be China's main heavyweight. Of course for maritime security and diplomatcy and further military excursions, the south fleet may need more cvs. However, the threat in the east, imo is quite red south is amber at best.

Essentially military threats in the south is less, especially because even if not reliable, Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar and Cambodia are friendly. Japan on the other hand would probably eat China alive if they had the chance, Japan would do everything to help contain China, and unless the PLAN can challenge them in the East Sea, China might as well not have a navy.

Let me put it this way, South Sea Fleet = International diplomacy, power projection and trade security, East Sea Fleet = First like of actual defence from the only countries that are "actual" threat to Chinese National securty i.e. Japan, USA, having an active defence means being able to only wait on your enemy, but to go meet the enemy and keep any conflit outside of the taiwan strait(remember taiwan should always be an objective strategic subject).
North Sea Fleet= last line of naval defences agains a possible hostile korea, but this is almost a non issue at this point in time, however the north can be completely secured with land based systems and heavily armed destroyers.

Now I am not saying anything I just wroteis based on actual PLAN requirements, it is however my own conclusion as an individual who favours Chian and has been carefully watching not only China, but also their neighbors.

 

[Deino]

And now the sensor mast ...

View attachment 33700

... better now !

 

[morosini]

No integrated mast?

 

[Tyloe]

Probably for a Type 382 radar like the Liaoning.

 

[Iron Man]

What's the point of an integrated mast for a carrier? All those vertically sloped hull sides will more than negate any minimal RCS advantage conferred by such a mast.

 

[abc123]

Sorry to butt in but aren't you ignoring the pacific? Having the ability to engage the US outside of Critical first island chain In my humble opinion is critical, allowing the US to have complete control of the first island chain during peace and war time means US vassels have the ability to contain the chinese navy and navy air force in a similar fashion to their use the navy and marines during the vietnam war.

The main strategic advantage of the East sea fleet will only come into play if china could dominate okinawa in times of conflic, thus releasing the eastt fleet to meet any reinforced USN towards guam. I do believe that whne taiwan is eventually "neutralised", the east sea or new pacific fleet will be China's main heavyweight. Of course for maritime security and diplomatcy and further military excursions, the south fleet may need more cvs. However, the threat in the east, imo is quite red south is amber at best.

Essentially military threats in the south is less, especially because even if not reliable, Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar and Cambodia are friendly. Japan on the other hand would probably eat China alive if they had the chance, Japan would do everything to help contain China, and unless the PLAN can challenge them in the East Sea, China might as well not have a navy.

Let me put it this way, South Sea Fleet = International diplomacy, power projection and trade security, East Sea Fleet = First like of actual defence from the only countries that are "actual" threat to Chinese National securty i.e. Japan, USA, having an active defence means being able to only wait on your enemy, but to go meet the enemy and keep any conflit outside of the taiwan strait(remember taiwan should always be an objective strategic subject).
North Sea Fleet= last line of naval defences agains a possible hostile korea, but this is almost a non issue at this point in time, however the north can be completely secured with land based systems and heavily armed destroyers.

Now I am not saying anything I just wroteis based on actual PLAN requirements, it is however my own conclusion as an individual who favours Chian and has been carefully watching not only China, but also their neighbors.

Yep, BUT:

a) until Taiwan is "neutralised" this way or another, ESF isn't so important

b) what's the easiest way to hurt China ( by the USA, Japan etc. )? Cutting the vital lifeline goeing from the Middle East trough Strait of Malacca to South China Sea. So, in the immediate future ( next 10-20 years, barring any unpredictable changes ) IMHO the most important fleet ( that needs carriers the most ) will be the Southern Fleet, so the carriers will mostly go there.