CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[Blitzo]

Let us wait.

If the first CATOBAR-carrier comes without a ski-jump, than I am quite sure they will fit every jet-operating flattop with cats.

If the first CATOBAR-carrier has both, ski-jump and waist cats, than I am not sure.

How does that logic work?

Are you suggesting that the major factor determining whether they can or will fit carriers with catapults depends on the success of the catapults themselves?

I would argue that the major factor for whether previous STOBAR carriers are refit with catapults or not depends on the nature of the catapult and the nature of the carrier it is intending to be refit on.

Not only do steam and EM catapults both require the entire bow flight deck (and waist) to be opened up to install the catapults, but steam catapults also require immensely complex piping and internal work to get the catapult's machinery itself to work. EM catapults are a little better because there is no need to divert steam away from the main boilers, but that still will require either IEPS or dedicated electrical generators to power the EM catapults, and the extent of modifications necessary for both steam and EM cats to work in a carrier which wasn't designed with it in mind from the outset is far too large.

It is of course possible for 001A to have been designed with internal modification for catapults later in mind, but given 001A is meant to be the low risk carrier before 002, I doubt that such a degree of complex future-proofing was done.

So in the case of both Liaoning and 001A, I believe modifying them with catapults is probably far too complex and costly for it to be seriously considered, regardless of whether it's steam or EM catapults.



Also, I do not expect 002 to have a ski jump; there's not been any indication or rumour that it will have a ski jump AND catapults, it has only been described with catapults.
I'm not sure what the fascination with Ulyanovsk and China's carrier programme is.
If the Navy can develop a catapult that they're confident enough to install on the waist as part of the standard fit then it should be equally capable of putting it on the bow as well.

 

[Intrepid]

So in the case of both Liaoning and 001A, I believe modifying them with catapults is probably far too complex and costly for it to be seriously considered, regardless of whether it's steam or EM catapults.

They can sell the ships or put them into reserve.

 

[Franklin]

Maybe it was a mistake to build the Type 001A and they should have gone for the Type 002 directly. A STOBAR carrier has limitations in its function. It is useful for fleet protection and ASW warfare but in order to do strike missions you need a CATOBAR carrier that can launch planes in full weight and also able to launch AEW planes.

The Liaoning is seen as a trainer carrier and got the pennant number 16. The new carrier would be a regular service aircraft carrier and may get the pennant number 01 and not 17 as presumed.

 

[Intrepid]

Maybe it was a mistake to build the Type 001A and they should have gone for the Type 002 directly.

It takes an other ten two fifteen years to complete a full airwing with fighters, bombers, aew, asw, tankers, cod, ...

As a gap-filler and for a smooth learning courve Type 001A was the right decision I think. But thereafter Type 001/001A is obsolete and should be converted, sold or mothballed. Two much sailors for to less efficiency.

 

[Blitzo]

They can sell the ships or put them into reserve.

Or they will just continue operating them until they get around to building carriers to replace them.

Either way, I doubt we will see Liaoning and 001A with refitted catapults

 

[Blitzo]

Maybe it was a mistake to build the Type 001A and they should have gone for the Type 002 directly. A STOBAR carrier has limitations in its function. It is useful for fleet protection and ASW warfare but in order to do strike missions you need a CATOBAR carrier that can launch planes in full weight and also able to launch AEW planes.

No, a STOBAR carrier should be able to launch heavily loaded strike fighters as well, so long as the carrier is underway with enough over-deck headwind.
What a CATOBAR carriers offers is the ability to launch fixed wing AEW&C (very important), launch heavily loaded fighters under more conditions than a STOBAR carrier which provides more flexibility for launching heavy strike planes (also important), and also to spot more aircraft on deck, especially the bow (important too).

And no, I don't think it was a mistake to build 001A, because in addition to the above, I think building 001A also means the Navy will get two carriers in service for a number of years before the first 002 enters service, meaning they are able to train that many more experienced pilots and deck crew and ship crew and to better develop doctrine even faster, so that once the more capable 002 CATOBAR enters service they can hit the ground running.

So while 001A is correctly seen as the "lower risk" option, in some ways it is probably also the "higher yield" option in terms of providing more platforms to train and develop human experience and institutional expertise in operating and managing carriers.

The Liaoning is seen as a trainer carrier and got the pennant number 16. The new carrier would be a regular service aircraft carrier and may get the pennant number 01 and not 17 as presumed.

No, I think "training carrier" is the wrong term.

I think Liaoning is a seed carrier -- that is to say at this stage it will be used to develop doctrine, to train crew, pilots, to invest in the knowledge and experience needed for future larger scale growth and scaling of carrier expertise for the Navy, i.e.: the "planting" of the "seed".
But once enough training and development of doctrine, equipment, and experienced crew is done, and once a small number of carriers with multiple experienced crews are available, the "seed" will have been fully grown, and Liaoning's role will become that of a standard fleet carrier.

So I expect 001A to be CV-17.



Tbh I'm not even sure why the idea of Liaoning being a "training carrier" is still being floated -- the ship is clearly fitted out with the full suite of sensors, weapons, and facilities you'd expect for a fully operational carrier. The only difference is that the Chinese Navy is still learning to operate a carrier in the first place and to develop the human expertise, so by association it means Liaoning will technically and temporarily be considered a "training carrier"... however it is fully fitted out with the equipment you'd expect as a standard operational carrier, so it is just waiting for the planes, and the experienced pilots and crew, which all will come in due time.

Another way to look at why the "training carrier" label is misleading, is to consider what the term "training carrier" (or "training ship") implies or means -- it implies a vessel whose sole purpose role is for training, i.e.: that it lacks the facilities and equipment and subsystems for other roles such as combat capability (without undergoing any substantial modification of course).
OTOH, a warship of any type can fulfill the role as a training ship -- all you need is an inexperienced and new crew, whose purpose on a warship is to learn how to operate it, and the warship will technically be fulfilling the function temporarily as a training ship.

So any standard warship can operate as a training ship but also can operate as a warship, whereas a training ship can only operate as a training ship but not a warship.

In the case of Liaoning, it is a vessel which will be operating as a training carrier (or seed carrier) for a little while, but it is also very obvious that it is not limited to only the training ship role, as it is also a fully fledged and outfitted warship only lacking its complement of experienced crew and aircraft.

 

[Jeff Head]

So in the case of both Liaoning and 001A, I believe modifying them with catapults is probably far too complex and costly for it to be seriously considered...

Agreed.

Also, I do not expect 002 to have a ski jump; there's not been any indication or rumour that it will have a ski jump AND catapults, it has only been described with catapults.

Also agree. I believe 002 will be a conventionally powered, purely CATOBAR carrier.

The cats make the carrier more effective all around. The US and French have proven that they can be reliably counted on and utilized.

Only if you were worried about breakdowns and failures would you have both...and I believe the Chinese are not going to go there until they are very certain that they have perfected the designs and the technology.

And I think over the last few years, they probably have and are now ready to employ them on a carrier...002.

Time will tell.

 

[Jeff Head]

As a gap-filler and for a smooth learning courve Type 001A was the right decision I think. But thereafter Type 001/001A is obsolete and should be converted, sold or mothballed. Two much sailors for to less efficiency.

I do not think so.

Those two carriers, if used properly have significant striking power and are superior to anything except US carriers, the French Carrier, and probably the new QE carriers with their airwing of F-35Bs.

Lots of things they can be used for while they are building up 3-4 CATOBAR carriers, and thereafter as ell. Let them handle the lower threat, less intensity operations they may face.

Then, in 35 years or so from now, they will be replaced by nuclear powered, new design CATOBAR carriers themselves.

 

[Franklin]

No, a STOBAR carrier should be able to launch heavily loaded strike fighters as well, so long as the carrier is underway with enough over-deck headwind.
What a CATOBAR carriers offers is the ability to launch fixed wing AEW&C (very important), launch heavily loaded fighters under more conditions than a STOBAR carrier which provides more flexibility for launching heavy strike planes (also important), and also to spot more aircraft on deck, especially the bow (important too).

And no, I don't think it was a mistake to build 001A, because in addition to the above, I think building 001A also means the Navy will get two carriers in service for a number of years before the first 002 enters service, meaning they are able to train that many more experienced pilots and deck crew and ship crew and to better develop doctrine even faster, so that once the more capable 002 CATOBAR enters service they can hit the ground running.

So while 001A is correctly seen as the "lower risk" option, in some ways it is probably also the "higher yield" option in terms of providing more platforms to train and develop human experience and institutional expertise in operating and managing carriers.


No, I think "training carrier" is the wrong term.

I think Liaoning is a seed carrier -- that is to say at this stage it will be used to develop doctrine, to train crew, pilots, to invest in the knowledge and experience needed for future larger scale growth and scaling of carrier expertise for the Navy, i.e.: the "planting" of the "seed".
But once enough training and development of doctrine, equipment, and experienced crew is done, and once a small number of carriers with multiple experienced crews are available, the "seed" will have been fully grown, and Liaoning's role will become that of a standard fleet carrier.

So I expect 001A to be CV-17.



Tbh I'm not even sure why the idea of Liaoning being a "training carrier" is still being floated -- the ship is clearly fitted out with the full suite of sensors, weapons, and facilities you'd expect for a fully operational carrier. The only difference is that the Chinese Navy is still learning to operate a carrier in the first place and to develop the human expertise, so by association it means Liaoning will technically and temporarily be considered a "training carrier"... however it is fully fitted out with the equipment you'd expect as a standard operational carrier, so it is just waiting for the planes, and the experienced pilots and crew, which all will come in due time.

Another way to look at why the "training carrier" label is misleading, is to consider what the term "training carrier" (or "training ship") implies or means -- it implies a vessel whose sole purpose role is for training, i.e.: that it lacks the facilities and equipment and subsystems for other roles such as combat capability (without undergoing any substantial modification of course).
OTOH, a warship of any type can fulfill the role as a training ship -- all you need is an inexperienced and new crew, whose purpose on a warship is to learn how to operate it, and the warship will technically be fulfilling the function temporarily as a training ship.

So any standard warship can operate as a training ship but also can operate as a warship, whereas a training ship can only operate as a training ship but not a warship.

In the case of Liaoning, it is a vessel which will be operating as a training carrier (or seed carrier) for a little while, but it is also very obvious that it is not limited to only the training ship role, as it is also a fully fledged and outfitted warship only lacking its complement of experienced crew and aircraft.

One of the problems with a STOBAR carrier is that the head wind needed for the lift is in part being obscured by the ski ramp. The difference in take off weight between catapult launch and ski ramp can be significant. We have never seen a J-15 taking off fully loaded from the Liaoning. Only with 4 AAM or with two bombs. I think with a ski ramp launch you have to make compromises between weapons load and fuel. Something you don't have to do with a catapult.

The label "training carrier" is of course misleading because its a label being put on the Liaoning for political reasons. It has to do with the way they got hold of the Varyag hull. But the most often heard phrase for the Liaoning is "starter carrier". The new Type 001A carrier will not have to deal with those kind of issue's. So its possible that the pennant number will not be 17.

 

[vesicles]

I think the term "training carrier" was given by the PLA themselves...