It has for centuries been usual for professional soldiers, especially officers of course, to take leave to practice their trade in a war in which their own country, or at any rate the country in whose army they served, was not concerned. Think of French officers serving in the rebel army in North America after 1776, and before the French navy appeared, as one well known example.I just came back from work so I don't who fanfared what, but before lunch I had chance to watch this (comes from a Russian TV station):
[video]http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=616923[/video]
where says for him also Active Duty Russian Military are fighting, who are on holidays and instead of going to a beach, they joined his forces ... I'm not kidding you, this particular part starts at 01:28 I now checked -- native Russian speakers would confirm this (if they understood his thick accent -- now I'm kidding
Now I'll go through a couple of news-servers of a former Eastern Bloc ...
Crisis in the Ukraine
- Thread starter bd popeye
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Mr T
Senior Member
There were reports - you can believe them or not - that some people picked through the wreckage for things to pinch. If that were correct, I would say those people were sub-human.
Anyway, what's Putin's latest attempt at explaining the situation in eastern Ukraine? Maybe the rebels have managed to invent cloning machines that are replicating them extra soldiers and equipment?
Yeah, no offence, but your examples are over two centuries old. That sort of thing doesn't really happen anymore, except in countries where the armed forces have little or no discipline and personnel just do whatever they feel like.
What is happening in Ukraine is a Russian invasion. Doesn't matter if they're sending in 4,000 as "volunteers" or 40,000 goose-stepping to the Russian national anthem, it's still an invasion.
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Jura The idiot
General
It's tomorrow morning, two Russian soldiers report back in their base.
A: Hey! How was your holiday?
B: Pretty good, spent it on a beach in Sochi. What about you?
A: I've been to Donetsk.
B: Say again.
A: Donetsk. It's D-O-N-E-T-S-K.
B: oh, and where is that?
A: Ukraine.
B: Where?
A: Just a country.
LOL!
Whaaat??? Stop justyfing that kind of behavior because you simply won't hold up your argument and everyone who had served on this board will tell you the same thing. About the argument you used - the world had moved on a bit from XVIII century...
Well a direct military confrontation with the Regular forces of the Russian Federation, with all its potential WW3 implications are nothing to take lightly, so what could possibly be more important as a news item?
Well apparently in the UK WW3 comes behind A Tory MP defecting to UKIP and forcing a By Election and a report on historic sexual abuse in the Northern Town of Rotherham. Could it be that despite the sound and fury that nobody really takes these allegations significantly more seriously than any of the previous?
There is of course the matters of trust, proberty, objectivity and accuracy that help discern confidence in a news source
It was therefore a surprise to see the new BBC map today.
Gratifying to see that they finally accept the Kiev no longer has any presence in post cauldron Southern Luhansk but I am obviously dismayed to learn that the Ukrainians have managed to recapture both Donetsk and Gorlovka today and without anybody living there noticing.
If the reporting matches the standard of map making............
I am still waiting to see any solid evidence of direct RF military involvement, as opposed to the very thin circumstantial evidence covering a lot of unsupported allegation.
I have seen a Satellite photo purporting to be Russian SPA in Southern Luhansk. Why it is deemed Russian is not explained. I am however aware that this is the vicinity of the original cauldron and that a large number of SPA pieces in various conditions of serviceability were captured there are the cauldron collapsed earlier this month. They said at the time that the some pieces would need time to repair and so not really a surprise to see a regular stream of equipment come out now and into the near future.
Likewise a picture of a tank that is claimed to be a variant only used by the RF Regulars. One tank is not much more than a statistical anomaly and could be misidentification or an odd piece that has come in via the volunteers from South Ossetia etc.
I do not think it too difficult a concept that any Russian direct Intervention would involve large discreet formations, easily, precisely identified and a very definite chain of command. Such formations would be involved in very particular engagements and be active in very particular areas.
I do think this is the level of irrefutable proof required for the current and previous allegations to be taken seriously.
Otherwise what is irrefutable is that the flag of Novorossiya flies tonight in Novoazovsk and from the ruins of the Oblisk of Saur Mogila.
Given just how fast things are moving at the moment; with rumours of collapsing cauldrons and forces re-entering Severdonesk and other north Luhansk cities, I think the next full SITREP will be a very interesting read indeed.
Well apparently in the UK WW3 comes behind A Tory MP defecting to UKIP and forcing a By Election and a report on historic sexual abuse in the Northern Town of Rotherham. Could it be that despite the sound and fury that nobody really takes these allegations significantly more seriously than any of the previous?
There is of course the matters of trust, proberty, objectivity and accuracy that help discern confidence in a news source
It was therefore a surprise to see the new BBC map today.
Gratifying to see that they finally accept the Kiev no longer has any presence in post cauldron Southern Luhansk but I am obviously dismayed to learn that the Ukrainians have managed to recapture both Donetsk and Gorlovka today and without anybody living there noticing.
If the reporting matches the standard of map making............
I am still waiting to see any solid evidence of direct RF military involvement, as opposed to the very thin circumstantial evidence covering a lot of unsupported allegation.
I have seen a Satellite photo purporting to be Russian SPA in Southern Luhansk. Why it is deemed Russian is not explained. I am however aware that this is the vicinity of the original cauldron and that a large number of SPA pieces in various conditions of serviceability were captured there are the cauldron collapsed earlier this month. They said at the time that the some pieces would need time to repair and so not really a surprise to see a regular stream of equipment come out now and into the near future.
Likewise a picture of a tank that is claimed to be a variant only used by the RF Regulars. One tank is not much more than a statistical anomaly and could be misidentification or an odd piece that has come in via the volunteers from South Ossetia etc.
I do not think it too difficult a concept that any Russian direct Intervention would involve large discreet formations, easily, precisely identified and a very definite chain of command. Such formations would be involved in very particular engagements and be active in very particular areas.
I do think this is the level of irrefutable proof required for the current and previous allegations to be taken seriously.
Otherwise what is irrefutable is that the flag of Novorossiya flies tonight in Novoazovsk and from the ruins of the Oblisk of Saur Mogila.
Given just how fast things are moving at the moment; with rumours of collapsing cauldrons and forces re-entering Severdonesk and other north Luhansk cities, I think the next full SITREP will be a very interesting read indeed.
solarz
Brigadier
Yup, this is a typical NATO tactic to present a piece of evidence and draw unsupported conclusions from it. For example, the MH17 incident. They detected a missile heat signature, and inferred from that it was evidence of rebels firing a BUK at the plane.
You raise a good point that this convoy could easily be captured equipment from the Southern Cauldron. The timing would certainly be in line with Colonel Cassad's previous reports.
Jura The idiot
General
and what I found (and probably wouldn't get covered in this thread
is there have been too many Russian Paratroopers missing this summer after they had left for "exercises" and this evening officially asked the Army Attorney General (is this correct? in English I mean) for an investigation: I've read the story from Kostroma where the Russian Airborne Troops Division is stationed, which lost 9 soldiers captured: http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/members-club-room/crisis-ukraine-50-6939.html#post302421 two KIA and "about ten" wounded who were in Rostov's hospitals ... according to which interviewed female relatives (who met the Deputy Commander of said Base) of those soldiers
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kinda background in English:
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There were news items of that kind but I saw they were without a source being mentioned. I considered them to be propaganda.
It is a reasonable supposition that in the circumstances ( artillery attacks on industrial plants and housing estates ) that many men without a job or with the prospect of losing their job and at least with the chance of losing their home will have chosen to enlist in the militia and have been in training. Quite a few will have completed training and be available for this offensive.
It has been happening for centuries and I gave just the best known example.
I would think this is not the kind of war for which the Russian army is trained. The competent leadership must come from in the first place a few officers who have thought about it for years and then from many who started to train for this perhaps only last November. Intially the number was quite small but it recently must have grown very considerably due to their success against the Kiev forces and due to the Kiev's propensity to target industrial plant, houses and electricity distribution networks.
The way of fighting of the Kiev army and of oligarch sponsored auxilliary units enabled the militia to capture considerable numbers of vehicles including tanks but I would imagine the Russian must at least help with munitions and fuel. The 4000 or so volunteers will be officers and specialists to help restore and use the captured material.
Russia will no doubt also be sending reconnaissance forces into Ukraine but with instructions not to fight as illustrated by the nine or ten parachtists caught by Kiev a few days ago - in addition of course of aerial reconnaissance for which it is not necessary to cross the border.
Goose-stepping has nothing to do to this kind of war.
thunderchief
Senior Member
There is a lot of confusion created (deliberately or not) by mixing terms intervention and invasion .
Russia probably did intervene in war by giving logistic, sending arms, training rebels or even by sending volunteers. This could be compared to what US did in Syria, or to a larger extent in Libya. But Russia certainly did not yet invade Ukraine, like US did in Iraq 2003.
Would Russia really invade Ukraine ? I don't know but let me tell you one thing : Ukrainian artillery still has Donetsk and Lugansk in range, and actually shelled and rocketed them today. IMHO, first sign of real Russian invasion would be heavy air strikes on those positions followed by armored thrust to eliminate them . There is no talk about going to Kiev if you cannot eliminate multiple pockets of resistance in your rear near strategetic points.
Russia probably did intervene in war by giving logistic, sending arms, training rebels or even by sending volunteers. This could be compared to what US did in Syria, or to a larger extent in Libya. But Russia certainly did not yet invade Ukraine, like US did in Iraq 2003.
Would Russia really invade Ukraine ? I don't know but let me tell you one thing : Ukrainian artillery still has Donetsk and Lugansk in range, and actually shelled and rocketed them today. IMHO, first sign of real Russian invasion would be heavy air strikes on those positions followed by armored thrust to eliminate them . There is no talk about going to Kiev if you cannot eliminate multiple pockets of resistance in your rear near strategetic points.
Jura The idiot
General
I wonder if you would have said the same if during some NATO soldiers (yes, it's speculative, but read on) had been officially on holidays but at the same time fought together with the Georgians?
P.S. Original post by delft: http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/members-club-room/crisis-ukraine-51-6939.html#post302655
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