Crisis in the Ukraine

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SampanViking

The Capitalist
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I doubt Ukraine is capable of creating such a pod, and also why would they want to do that ? They already have fighters equipped with radars and missiles. For a false flag operation it is enough just to shoot down the plane in area held by rebels and they would be automatically proclaimed guilty by Western media .
Independent investigation is impossible at this moment, both sides have vested interests , therefore we could only guess what really happened . Truth would probably emerge only after significant passage of time, at least 20 years from now.

Well I did say that I did not wish to belabour the point and it is simply my own conjecture.

I think it represents my thoughts that anyone organising a false flag would want to make it look as convincing as possible. If an Air to Air strike was the plan, it would be pretty risky unless it could be assured that the plane landed on friendly territory. The other option could be to try and frame the Russians directly and you could use the story from that very day (or the day before) of Ukraine accusing Russia of shooting down an SU-25 as part of the preamble narrative.

A safer bet would by to use the BUK and blame the Self Defence Militia. If however the BUK M1 is not a fully reliable in that mode, at that altitude, then you may need to give it a hand during the terminal stage. An aircraft, with an ability to guide the missile close in, is an obvious choice. Why use an SU-25 rather than a Flanker? Well assuming an attached device was required to finish the job, then a Ground Attack aircraft is generally more versatile with regard its fittings and connections, than is an Air Superiority Fighter.

Of course there is nothing to say that the BUK could cause the initial damage and then the A2A used to finish it off and hope that nobody notices the extra damage, especially if applied to a fuel tank.

Again just my conjecture and I wait to hear any subsequent official version of events the Russian Military actually do present, as indeed the International Aviation Investigation Team.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
MH17: Scuffles break out in parliament as MPs discuss Malaysian plane crash

It appears not all members of the Ukraine government are happy with the level of blame being placed on Russia for recent events in Ukraine

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I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Sputnik

New Member
DNR forces attack on Ukrainian army
[video=youtube;qKe-uuuA87Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKe-uuuA87Y[/video]
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
My opinion, they sure don't look armed and supplied by Russia.

Russian combat Uniforms. Commercial patterns this time but uniquely Russian patterns.
Russian made vehicles.
Russian made Armor.
Russian Mortar shells.
Russian small arms.
Russian made web gear.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
I mean they look very rag tagged with stuff that looks like surplus army store.
Ukraine govt forces look more like soldiers.

Russian combat Uniforms. Commercial patterns this time but uniquely Russian patterns.
Russian made vehicles.
Russian made Armor.
Russian Mortar shells.
Russian small arms.
Russian made web gear.
 

SampanViking

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REA AWL ABART IT!

Some fairly hefty back pedalling today from the US over accusations of Russia culpability for MH17

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WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.

The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here."

White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said the U.S. was still working to determine whether the missile launch had a "direct link" to Russia, including whether there were Russians on the ground during the attack and the degree to which Russians may have trained the separatists to launch such a strike.

"We do think President Putin and the Russian government bears responsibility for the support they provided to these separatists, the arms they provided to these separatists, the training they provided as well and the general unstable environment in eastern Ukraine," Rhodes said in an interview with CNN.

He added that heavy weaponry continues to flow into Ukraine from Russia following the downing of the plane.

The intelligence officials said the most likely explanation for the downing was that the rebels made a mistake. Separatists previously had shot down 12 Ukrainian military airplanes, the officials said.

The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.

But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.

Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.

From satellites, sensors and other intelligence gathering, officials said, they know where the missile originated — in separatist-held territory — and what its flight path was. But if they possess satellite or other imagery of the missile being fired, they did not release it Tuesday. A graphic they made public depicts their estimation of the missile's flight path with a green line. The jet's flight path was available from air traffic control data.

In the weeks before the plane was shot down, Russia had stepped up its arming and training of the separatists after the Ukrainian government won a string of battlefield victories. The working theory is that the SA-11 missile came from Russia, although the U.S. doesn't have proof of that, the officials said.

U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Samantha Power said last week that "because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems," she said.

Asked about evidence, one of the senior U.S. intelligence officials said it was conceivable that Russian paramilitary troops are operating in eastern Ukraine, but that there was no direct link from them to the missile launch.

Asked why civilian airline companies were not warned about a possible threat, the officials said they did not know the rebels possessed SA-11 missiles until after the Malaysian airliner was shot down.

I think if you and I tried to make a case on evidence as flimsy as this, we would be laughed off the boards as conspiracy theorists.
This also is before even highlighting statements here which are clearly contradicted by the hard empirical evidence released by Russia on Monday.

I have also highlighted the last line in red. This statement is either a bare faced lie or otherwise if true, how could the US make accusations against Russia on the 17th within minutes of learning of the crash?

Highlighted in Orange what also looks like another lie as we have empirical evidence form Russia which proves the presence of Ukrainian systems in this part of the combat zone.
 
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Janiz

Senior Member
REA AWL ABART IT!
lol, dude, you're sure you don't have any issues ;)

Jokes apart, a great win for your theory. Apart from the fact that no one took seriously a theory of a missile shot from Russian territory from the start...
 
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delft

Brigadier
Asked why civilian airline companies were not warned about a possible threat, the officials said they did not know the rebels possessed SA-11 missiles until after the Malaysian airliner was shot down.
I just heard on my favorite radio station a Dutchman, whose name I saw in my paper but which I do not now remember, who said that in the last two weeks several airlines in the world, among them US airlines, were warned of the dander of SA missiles over the Ukraine, but he said such warnings remain with a country and are not shared with airlines in other countries.He was angry about that. He is someone in the society of European airlines.
This looks as if rumors of a false flag operation were the source of the warning.

M K Bhadrakumar also remarked on the speed of the US reaction, in a blog I copied to the Middle East thread.
 
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Sputnik

New Member
two Ukrainian Su-25 shot down
video with one of them:
[video=youtube;TKaDtjQmfX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKaDtjQmfX8[/video]
 
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