Crisis in Egypt & Middle East!

Red Moon

Junior Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

I know this is a little close to the wind, but I have been reading from a number of sources, analysis that could be very interesting, as long as it is discussed maturely. If it fails that test sadly I will have to pull the plug.

In summary, the analysis is that the wave of protests and revolutions occurring in 2011 mark the real end of the cold war, with these protests bringing down the US "Far Abroad" in the same way that the Protests of 1989 brought down the Soviet "Near Abroad". The main difference here is of course that the Soviets never had a Far Abroad" of their own and so the problems only manifested themselves when they were critical and right on the Soviets doorstep.

So is there a significant difference between a Near and Far Abroad in terms of its ability to impact a major power?

Can discontent in a Far Abroad be managed or sacrificed in order to ensure that it does not spread to the "Near Abroad"?

If not, where would you expect the protests to spread to over the short to medium term?

Think before you post!
Sorry for waiting so long, Sampan. But at least I was able to think a little bit.:)

The main thing about the Middle East, is that it isn't just any old "Far Abroad". It is a rather special one, as it holds 50% or so of the worlds oil reserves (have not checked the figure). Even without this, the region lies at the intersection of the three largest continents, and is also home to the center of one of the major world religions. Strategically speaking, this is the most important region in the world, and has been seen as the single most important strategic "prize" for decades by both the US and the Soviet Union when it was around.

So let's look at the bigger picture:
  • In the 'AfPak' region, it appears, not only that the both of the governments in Pakistan and Afghanistan are simultaneously becoming estranged from the US, but that they have begun to cooperate among themselves. They have also turned more and more towards Iran, Russia, Turkey and China. Relations between the US and Pakistan have reached a crisis point in the last couple of weeks, with the Raymond Davis case, and relations with Karzai keep reaching new lows.
  • Lebanon has just dumped the pro-American Prime Minister, Hariri, and replaced him with someone friendly to Hezbollah. All of this, because Hariri, and the US, insisted on continuing with the STL ploy, against the wishes of the Iranians, Syrians, Turks, and others.
  • An American puppet has been removed in Egypt, while unrest continues in Yemen, Bahrain and other pro-American bastions in the region. Tunisia, while less crucial to US policy than Egypt, was also a friend of the US. Already, Abbas has had to promise elections, and generally, there is no end in sight, as yet, to the crisis in this region.
  • Iraq today finally has a prime minister, but he owes his position to the Sadrists and to mediation by Iran. If all else were fine in the region, this would merely be a bad situation, but in the current environment, Maliki is not likely to repeat his performance of 2007-8, when he turned against the Sadrists that had supported him. Seeing the American position weaken, he would be foolish to stick his neck out for the US that way.

I think what we are seeing today is the collapse of the American grip on the Middle East. This prolonged period of war, of forcing various "allies" to bend over backwards, to do things against their will, or that are not in their own interest, has taken its toll. This is the case with Mubarak, Abbas, the Pakistani government, Maliki, Karzai, and others. The last 10 years have stressed the hell out of the relations between the US and pretty much every single player in the region.

But this is quite different from the collapse of the Soviet Union. It is just a particular strategy which is collapsing. The US is no worse off than it was in 1974, for example, in terms of the Middle East.

As to the cold war... well the world is no longer divided into two "camps", so one has to interpret the "real end of the cold war" according to the view that the US is still pursuing it's cold war aims. Well, during the cold war, the US and the SU both tried to impose their own ideologies, "systems", or "mode of development" as the Chinese now say, on there respective spheres of influence, under the mistaken notion that this would guarantee friendship and alliance. Russia junked these views when the Soviet Union collapsed. The US did not. Will the US junk this method now? Well it could, in my view it should, but actually, there's no connection between this problem and the current crisis, so I doubt it.

Will the crisis spread? I think it will. Not necessarily unrest and revolution in the fashion of Egypt and Libya, but in the sense of spreading problems for the American position world wide. The reason is that the US is forced into damage control mode in the region which is most important for it, and therefore has no time for other problems. The US is being "attacked where it must defend". Because of Egypt, Bahrain, etc, even pressure on Iran has become secondary, and you can forget about Lebanon. And when the cat is away, the mice will play.

Note the very clever and bold move by the Iranians just a couple of days ago. They sent a couple of military vessels up the Suez Canal (and up Tantawi's, and Israel's kazoo) for the first time since 1979. The Egyptians said no, then thought about it, and said yes. If the Egyptian military had refused the Iranians, it would be one more sign for the people that nothing has changed. But by allowing them to pass, the Iranians sow discord, both between Egypt and Israel, as well as between different factions in the military.

This move itself is a measure of the things that are now possible, and all those, worldwide, who are uncomfortable with American domination will be free to take bolder actions such as this, at least for a certain period, but more likely, from now on.

The current wave of revolutions can perhaps be seen as marking the true birth of a multi-polar world.
 
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MwRYum

Major
The US is caught in a really tight box now, by most they can't exactly side with either the rulers or the people, only in unfriendly states like Libya they can go on the offensive against the rulers...still it is yet to be seen who'd reap from this all, my bet is on the (should be) coming general elections in Tunisia and Egypt half a year from now, then we'd see which way things would go.

But right now all these unrest caused the oil price shoot up, crossed the USD 100 line that it has been below of it for 2 years. It's going to hurt a lot more as oil price hike hits globally.

On a side note, it's spread far beyond the region...while China lack the right climate to ferment similar movements, the spirit catch on in Hong Kong - the latest fiscal budget proposal received very negatively by the locals, damming it make no attempts to help out the common folks facing tough inflation hikes, compound with the lack in social upward movements, the last few days every newspaper in Hong Kong is doing a "call to arms" for Egyptian-style protests in the front page, a popular revolution to make the government yield.
 
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Red Moon

Junior Member
Ideologues the world over are trying to make hay out of current conditions, but I doubt Hong Kong has the conditions for this either!

As for the Middle East, I agree one doesn't know which way the chips will fall, but it will not be decided by elections! There are a million possibilities between now and six months into the future. There will be incidents in Lebanon, in Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere, which we cannot foresee. What will the Iranian regime do? How about events elsewhere? New turns in Latin America, East Asia, etc. The elections too, could bring surprises, but they won't be the end of the story.

A case in point is the recent incident with the Iranian ships. For me, it would have been impossible to predict the outcome! Granted, this thing is not over with, but everyone in the current Egyptian regime is ostensibly a friend of the US, and at least indirectly, of Israel. Yet they let the ships through! Are they divided? Do they secretly wish to separate from the old policy? Or is it simply that they are aware of their people's feelings... and those of their officer corps. I would vote for the third possibility. Either way, what the Iranians have done is more than merely testing the waters. Their action also affects the outcome, and there will be many other incidents and events in these countries themselves, in the region, and in the world, that will affect the outcome.
 

akihh

New Member
If people of saudi arabia start to revolt we're definately in deep doo doo. Already "days of rage" called for march 11th and 20th.

SA oil is critical to whole world and if that house of cards start to crumble it means western military intervention to holiest places of islam or global economic collapse. Talk about bad options, eh.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
A case in point is the recent incident with the Iranian ships. For me, it would have been impossible to predict the outcome! Granted, this thing is not over with, but everyone in the current Egyptian regime is ostensibly a friend of the US, and at least indirectly, of Israel. Yet they let the ships through! Are they divided? Do they secretly wish to separate from the old policy? Or is it simply that they are aware of their people's feelings... and those of their officer corps. I would vote for the third possibility. Either way, what the Iranians have done is more than merely testing the waters. Their action also affects the outcome, and there will be many other incidents and events in these countries themselves, in the region, and in the world, that will affect the outcome.

When I think about that incident, it does indeed look like the new Egyptian government is more friendly to Iran. But look in more detail at the cost-benefit analysis of the situation. What does it cost the Egyptian government to let those ships through? Nothing, really. The US isn't going to pull support from the military over that one incident when anything could be their replacement. What does letting those ships through cost the US and Israel? It's a bit embarrassing, but it's not like one frigate constitutes any threat to US or Israeli interests.

Now what does it cost to deny the ships entry? That would signal that there hasn't really been much change at all. Same old policies. That could seriously piss off the Egyptian public. So in my mind at least, from the US/Israeli/Egyptian military perspective, it's better to let Iran score a minor propaganda victory rather than forbid the transit and signal to the people of Egypt that their revolution meant nothing, which could have much bigger consequences.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
When I think about that incident, it does indeed look like the new Egyptian government is more friendly to Iran. But look in more detail at the cost-benefit analysis of the situation. What does it cost the Egyptian government to let those ships through? Nothing, really. The US isn't going to pull support from the military over that one incident when anything could be their replacement. What does letting those ships through cost the US and Israel? It's a bit embarrassing, but it's not like one frigate constitutes any threat to US or Israeli interests.

Now what does it cost to deny the ships entry? That would signal that there hasn't really been much change at all. Same old policies. That could seriously piss off the Egyptian public. So in my mind at least, from the US/Israeli/Egyptian military perspective, it's better to let Iran score a minor propaganda victory rather than forbid the transit and signal to the people of Egypt that their revolution meant nothing, which could have much bigger consequences.
This was actually my point, if you read my previous post. And this is what I mean when I say "they are aware of their peoples feelings... and those of their officer corps."

But there is the other half of my point, which I think is more interesting. While the Israeli's are calling this "provocative", they know full well that this patrol boat poses no military danger to them. It is, in fact, not targeted at them, but at Tantawi & co. The aim of the Iranians, besides establishing the precedent, is to sow dissention. And perhaps you noticed that the Egyptians at first refused. This fact tells me the Iranians were successful: it both shows that the Tantawi regime wanted to continue the old policies, and establishes a sort of precedent.

As to costing the Egyptian regime nothing, I only agree that it costs less than the other alternative. They refused the Iranians for 30 years, so they, or at least the powers they want to please, must see some benefit in it. At the very least, it means that, under current circumstances, at least, Egypt is unable to "cooperate" with the US and Israel in the way these two states wish. And this will cause problems for them down the line, just as this sort of predicament caused problems for Arafat, or for the current Pakistani regime. Needless to say, it also causes problems for the US and Israel.

And there's more to this. I don't think the Egyptian position depends on the "feelings" of the leaders as such. They make their calculations like everybody else, as you know. And a process of evolution, away from the prior pro-American and pro-Israeli position may very well begin, just as has happened with Turkey. The reason is that right now their in a position which pleases nobody. With their current stand (on the fence), they will be under continuous pressure from all sides, because neither the US and it's allies will be pleased, nor will those states like Turkey, and even less, Iran. Their people will also see through it. So the regime must sooner or later reach the conclusion that getting off the fence is preferable to staying on it. And frankly, given the volcano they are sitting on, given the shifting "balance of power" equations globally, and especially in this region, it may decide to follow a path which equivocates, but leans gradually towards a position something like the Turkish one.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
the last few days every newspaper in Hong Kong is doing a "call to arms" for Egyptian-style protests in the front page, a popular revolution [emphasis mine] to make the government yield.

I think you mean "peaceful protests". Revolution suggests they will be storming public buildings and overthrowing the Hong Kong government, which will definitely not happen. HongKongers have the right to protest peacefully to get their government to listen to them. After all governments should listen to their people.
 

MwRYum

Major
I think you mean "peaceful protests". Revolution suggests they will be storming public buildings and overthrowing the Hong Kong government, which will definitely not happen. HongKongers have the right to protest peacefully to get their government to listen to them. After all governments should listen to their people.

It's gradually getting violent, just don't know when someone would take that step...
 

jantxv

New Member
I think you mean "peaceful protests". Revolution suggests they will be storming public buildings and overthrowing the Hong Kong government, which will definitely not happen. HongKongers have the right to protest peacefully to get their government to listen to them. After all governments should listen to their people.

Some revolutions can be quite bloodless. An example would be the events leading up to German reunification. When the East Germans started mass protests against their own government, the British and French governments were making the same noises that they are today about the revolutions in the Middle East. The "Western" governments preferred the "stable" situation as it always had been, and thought that a united Germany would be dangerous to the world.

The revolution now in Libya looks to be favoring the Romanian template, which will bode poorly for Gaddafi. The Egyptian revolution looks as if it is following the Soviet revolution pattern, when the military sided on the "mass" civilian opinion, and not the hardliners during the Gorbachev coupe. All revolutions are different, some are relatively peaceful, others are not. Yet again, history repeats itself with the "Western" governments acting very wearily to the Middle East revolutions. Fear of the unknown shouldn't be an excuse to resist change.
 
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