Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Not sure if this has been posted here yet (lots of posts in this thread and haven't been able to track them all), but this has a good summary for why R0 numbers need to be treated with some caution.

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The Deceptively Simple Number Sparking Coronavirus Fears
ED YONG JANUARY 28, 2020

When a new disease emerges, health organizations turn to a seemingly simple number to gauge whether the outbreak will spread. It’s called the basic reproduction number—R0, pronounced R-nought—and though useful for decision-makers, it’s a nightmare for public communication. In brief, R0 is the average number of people who will catch the disease from a single infected person, in a population that’s never seen that disease before. If R0 is 3, then on average, every case will create 3 new cases. But even though it seems incredibly straightforward, it’s hard to calculate and tricky to interpret.
R0 is important because if it’s greater than 1, the infection will probably keep spreading, and if it’s less than 1, the outbreak will likely peter out. So it offers vital information to organizations and nations as they consider how to respond to an outbreak—such as the one the world is currently experiencing.
Since December, a previously unknown coronavirus, now called 2019-nCoV, emerged in the Chinese city of Wuhan. There have been more than 4,500 confirmed cases, the vast majority of which have been in mainland China. But several dozen cases have been detected in more than 15 other countries, and as the outbreak has spread, so has fear. Public health researchers have sped to estimate the R0 of the new disease, and as they have shared their findings, this number has fueled several alarmed missives on social media.
Over the last week, at least six teams of researchers, along with the World Health Organization have published estimates of R0 for the new coronavirus. All of these groups used different methods but their results have been mostly consistent, with estimates hovering between 2 and 3. The WHO was a little more conservative than the others, with estimates of 1.4 to 2.5. One Chinese team is a clear outlier, with estimates of 3.3 to 5.5. And a British-led group initially published a high average value of 3.8 last week before revising it downwards to 2.5 as new data emerged.

In the intervening time, however, some observers seized upon the 3.8 figure, with one Harvard doctor describing it as “thermonuclear pandemic level bad” in a tweet that has since between retweeted over 16,000 times. That’s a dubious interpretation, and here are six reasons why.

First, the R0 estimates for the new coronavirus are in line with those for many other diseases. They’re similar to those for SARS (2 to 5) and HIV (also 2 to 5), and considerably lower than for measles (12 to 16).

Second, a bigger R0 doesn’t necessarily mean a worse disease. Seasonal flu has an R0 that hovers around 1.3, and yet infects millions of people every year. SARS had an R0 of 2 to 5 and infected just over 8,000 people. The number is a measure of potential transmissibility. It does not actually tell you how fast a disease will spread.
“People make the mistake of thinking that a high R0 means that you’re inevitably going to end up with a pandemic, and that’s not what it means at all,” says Maia Majumder from Harvard Medical School, who published one of the seven estimates for the new virus. In her view, if the number is higher than 1, we should take the disease seriously. But exactly how high it is beyond that threshold isn’t very informative at this stage.

Why? Because, third, R0 is an average. Let’s say the virus has an R0 of 2. This could mean that every single infected person passes the virus to two other people. It could also mean that one infected person is a “superspreader” who infects 100 people, while 49 infected people infect no one. These two scenarios have radically different implications for what will happen during an outbreak.
Superspreader events are dangerous for health care workers, but counter-intuitively, they can sometimes be a good sign. They suggest that most infected people won’t actually perpetuate the outbreak, while the most problematic cases “may be more likely to be recognized due to their dramatic nature,” writes David Fisman of the University of Toronto. This attention can mean control measures are put into place more readily, he explains in a posting to the PROMED email list. Other coronaviral diseases like SARS and MERS involved superspreader events, although it’s still too early to say if 2019-nCoV will do the same.

Fourth, R0 is not easy to calculate. That’s especially true in the early days of an epidemic, when it’s not even clear how many cases there have been. Some people might have been infected without showing symptoms. Others might not have reported their symptoms to health authorities. Absent clear data on who has the disease, let alone how they’re moving around and interacting with other people, scientists have to calculate R0 by doing complicated simulations using a variety of possible methods. That’s why early estimates can vary so wildly, and why they should be taken with a grain of salt.

Fifth, R0 is not some magical, immutable property of the virus itself. It depends on how likely someone is to be infected after contact with an infectious person, and how often such contacts occur—and these quantities are also affected by how societies deal with a virus. When SARS first emerged, transmission dynamics played out very differently in China and Canada, which is why the virus’s R0 values cover a wide range from 2 to 5. “In places with good infection control, where you can isolate cases as soon as they happen, you’ll see a lower R0 than say in places where an outbreak initially took off,” says Majumder.
The current R0 estimates for the new coronavirus are specific to Wuhan, and mostly to the era before people knew about the virus. New estimates will emerge as the virus spreads to places that are now aware of and watching for it. “Likely, these will all be significantly lower,” says Kristian Andersen, a virologist at Scripps Research Translational Institute.

Sixth, R0 is not destiny. It is a measure of a disease’s potential. And once nations realize that a new disease exists, they can actively screen for it, check that health care workers are using proper protection, or instigate quarantines. Even simple steps like hand-washing might make a difference. All of these measures could potentially lower the chances that the virus will spread and ensure that its actual transmission rate—the quantity known simply as R—is less than R0, and ideally less than 1. There are a few reassuring signs: One study suggests that patients are now being isolated just one day after showing symptoms, as opposed to after six days at the start of the outbreak.

None of this should be cause for complacency. The new virus is a serious threat, and the world should absolutely start considering what to do if containment measures fail. But at a time of great uncertainty, people grasp for solid answers, and numbers seem to offer them.

This new virus has emerged at a time when scientists have more avenues than ever for publishing their data and comparing notes. That can be a good thing, since fast and open communication can help to bring diseases to heel more quickly. The risk is that a complicated number is released without context into a world that doesn’t know how to think about it. “Getting these R0 values out very rapidly is super important,” says Andersen. “But the way that some people and news outlets have interpreted what they mean… that part is problematic.”
 
So a virus infection has 2 points to it: 1 is the infection rate, and 2 is the death rate. They are force multipliers of each other. The Swine flu numbers that you cited indicate a massively more infectious virus with a lower death rate. The mortality in the US was 12,500 with 61 million infected. Something like that in China with a population of 4x would be 50,000 dead, and that doesn't account for the factor of massively increased transmission rate due to quadrupled average population density. So... What is the importance of your 1,000 number?

You clearly don't know jack squat about viruses or flus and obviously are not here to learn. You have no idea what the threshold is to distinguish an emergency from a false alarm much less judge the actions of anyone else. You can't answer the question of what China should have done because you have no idea what the protocol is in any country for identifying (most critical) and dealing with a pandemic but only wanted to use any excuse whatsoever to bitch and moan about China's government on the internet. It has become especially clear that due to the extended incubation of the virus along with its ability to spread before symptoms arise, it is extremely hard if not impossible to catch early on. What are you here wasting bandwidth trying to do? To spread empty insults at leaders you wouldn't dare say in China? Dung beetle biting at a lion's heel...
I was wondering about those two tidbits:
  1. in December they knew about the danger Yesterday at 9:25 PM
    ... I searched the SCMP now, because I think I saw a related headline already in December (but no, I didn't pay attention then), probably this one:
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    Published: 2:35pm, 31 Dec, 2019

    inside, there's this interesting picture:
    418e78b8-2b88-11ea-8334-1a17c6a14ef4_image_hires_011737.jpg
    but
  2. in mid-January they organized some massive eating event (if that's what's happened) Yesterday at 8:12 AM
    while I had been suspended (because of an unrelated issue, LOL)

    I became aware of the claim

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    shows a gathering reportedly "attended by more than 40,000 families so the city could apply for a world record for most dishes served at an event." in Wuhan on Saturday, January 18 (
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    );

    is that claim true? yes or no would do it

    谢谢
can anyone explain this to me please
 
Yesterday at 11:41 PM
I took a look myself (of course I plotted and fitted in a totally simplistic way):

virus.jpg


1st day (Jan 19 here) 2.29667 is base 10 logarithm value of the number of confirmed cases (198 on Jan 19)
2nd day 2.46389 ditto (291)
3rd day 2.64345 ditto (440)
4th day 2.75664 ditto (571)
5th day 2.91908 ditto (830)
6th day 3.10958 ditto (1287)
8th day 3.43838 ditto (2744)
9th day 3.65466 ditto (4515)
11th day (today = Jan 29) 3.78254 ditto (6061 today:
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)

if it keeps growing this way (it won't), it'll reach ten thousand on the 13th day (would be in the end of January), as in
(4-2.29667)/0.137 = 12.4331
now adding the 12th day (today = Jan 30) 7771
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of course it's inaccurate what I do;

plot, fit as above anyway:
virus2.jpg



spooky huh
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Not sure if this has been posted here yet (lots of posts in this thread and haven't been able to track them all), but this has a good summary for why R0 numbers need to be treated with some caution.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The Deceptively Simple Number Sparking Coronavirus Fears
ED YONG JANUARY 28, 2020

When a new disease emerges, health organizations turn to a seemingly simple number to gauge whether the outbreak will spread. It’s called the basic reproduction number—R0, pronounced R-nought—and though useful for decision-makers, it’s a nightmare for public communication. In brief, R0 is the average number of people who will catch the disease from a single infected person, in a population that’s never seen that disease before. If R0 is 3, then on average, every case will create 3 new cases. But even though it seems incredibly straightforward, it’s hard to calculate and tricky to interpret.
R0 is important because if it’s greater than 1, the infection will probably keep spreading, and if it’s less than 1, the outbreak will likely peter out. So it offers vital information to organizations and nations as they consider how to respond to an outbreak—such as the one the world is currently experiencing.
Since December, a previously unknown coronavirus, now called 2019-nCoV, emerged in the Chinese city of Wuhan. There have been more than 4,500 confirmed cases, the vast majority of which have been in mainland China. But several dozen cases have been detected in more than 15 other countries, and as the outbreak has spread, so has fear. Public health researchers have sped to estimate the R0 of the new disease, and as they have shared their findings, this number has fueled several alarmed missives on social media.
Over the last week, at least six teams of researchers, along with the World Health Organization have published estimates of R0 for the new coronavirus. All of these groups used different methods but their results have been mostly consistent, with estimates hovering between 2 and 3. The WHO was a little more conservative than the others, with estimates of 1.4 to 2.5. One Chinese team is a clear outlier, with estimates of 3.3 to 5.5. And a British-led group initially published a high average value of 3.8 last week before revising it downwards to 2.5 as new data emerged.

In the intervening time, however, some observers seized upon the 3.8 figure, with one Harvard doctor describing it as “thermonuclear pandemic level bad” in a tweet that has since between retweeted over 16,000 times. That’s a dubious interpretation, and here are six reasons why.

First, the R0 estimates for the new coronavirus are in line with those for many other diseases. They’re similar to those for SARS (2 to 5) and HIV (also 2 to 5), and considerably lower than for measles (12 to 16).

Second, a bigger R0 doesn’t necessarily mean a worse disease. Seasonal flu has an R0 that hovers around 1.3, and yet infects millions of people every year. SARS had an R0 of 2 to 5 and infected just over 8,000 people. The number is a measure of potential transmissibility. It does not actually tell you how fast a disease will spread.
“People make the mistake of thinking that a high R0 means that you’re inevitably going to end up with a pandemic, and that’s not what it means at all,” says Maia Majumder from Harvard Medical School, who published one of the seven estimates for the new virus. In her view, if the number is higher than 1, we should take the disease seriously. But exactly how high it is beyond that threshold isn’t very informative at this stage.

Why? Because, third, R0 is an average. Let’s say the virus has an R0 of 2. This could mean that every single infected person passes the virus to two other people. It could also mean that one infected person is a “superspreader” who infects 100 people, while 49 infected people infect no one. These two scenarios have radically different implications for what will happen during an outbreak.
Superspreader events are dangerous for health care workers, but counter-intuitively, they can sometimes be a good sign. They suggest that most infected people won’t actually perpetuate the outbreak, while the most problematic cases “may be more likely to be recognized due to their dramatic nature,” writes David Fisman of the University of Toronto. This attention can mean control measures are put into place more readily, he explains in a posting to the PROMED email list. Other coronaviral diseases like SARS and MERS involved superspreader events, although it’s still too early to say if 2019-nCoV will do the same.

Fourth, R0 is not easy to calculate. That’s especially true in the early days of an epidemic, when it’s not even clear how many cases there have been. Some people might have been infected without showing symptoms. Others might not have reported their symptoms to health authorities. Absent clear data on who has the disease, let alone how they’re moving around and interacting with other people, scientists have to calculate R0 by doing complicated simulations using a variety of possible methods. That’s why early estimates can vary so wildly, and why they should be taken with a grain of salt.

Fifth, R0 is not some magical, immutable property of the virus itself. It depends on how likely someone is to be infected after contact with an infectious person, and how often such contacts occur—and these quantities are also affected by how societies deal with a virus. When SARS first emerged, transmission dynamics played out very differently in China and Canada, which is why the virus’s R0 values cover a wide range from 2 to 5. “In places with good infection control, where you can isolate cases as soon as they happen, you’ll see a lower R0 than say in places where an outbreak initially took off,” says Majumder.
The current R0 estimates for the new coronavirus are specific to Wuhan, and mostly to the era before people knew about the virus. New estimates will emerge as the virus spreads to places that are now aware of and watching for it. “Likely, these will all be significantly lower,” says Kristian Andersen, a virologist at Scripps Research Translational Institute.

Sixth, R0 is not destiny. It is a measure of a disease’s potential. And once nations realize that a new disease exists, they can actively screen for it, check that health care workers are using proper protection, or instigate quarantines. Even simple steps like hand-washing might make a difference. All of these measures could potentially lower the chances that the virus will spread and ensure that its actual transmission rate—the quantity known simply as R—is less than R0, and ideally less than 1. There are a few reassuring signs: One study suggests that patients are now being isolated just one day after showing symptoms, as opposed to after six days at the start of the outbreak.

None of this should be cause for complacency. The new virus is a serious threat, and the world should absolutely start considering what to do if containment measures fail. But at a time of great uncertainty, people grasp for solid answers, and numbers seem to offer them.

This new virus has emerged at a time when scientists have more avenues than ever for publishing their data and comparing notes. That can be a good thing, since fast and open communication can help to bring diseases to heel more quickly. The risk is that a complicated number is released without context into a world that doesn’t know how to think about it. “Getting these R0 values out very rapidly is super important,” says Andersen. “But the way that some people and news outlets have interpreted what they mean… that part is problematic.”

Exactly why i asked Brumby how he
1. concluded that the nCoV was serious based on R0.
2. Determined a predictive model for infections over time using R0 when its dimensionless.

Also that alarmist Eric Ding guy should be stripped of his qualifications and removed from Harvard if he just wanted to be on TV.
 

Brumby

Major
Exactly why i asked Brumby how he
1. concluded that the nCoV was serious based on R0.
2. Determined a predictive model for infections over time using R0 when its dimensionless.

Also that alarmist Eric Ding guy should be stripped of his qualifications and removed from Harvard if he just wanted to be on TV.

In my opinion, the science and methodology behind the determination of R0 is complex, difficult to understand, to meaningfully interpret and worst of all to explain in some simplistic comprehensible manner. Firstly, the majority of the general public would not find it useful. The basic concept itself is very simple, but getting to the number is highly complex and full of probabilistic assumptions. For example, an R0 = 2 is basically one infected person on average will then infect another two as illustrated below.

.upload_2020-1-30_21-22-24.png

On badness scale, a R0=3 is worst than R0=2. The problem is the significance of that difference is between heaven and earth,

Currently there are at least seven research models out there with different R0's. Those that I can quote include :
(1)Lancaster University which initially quoted a high number of 3.8 but subsequently revised to 2.5 This was the R0 that triggered a twitter storm;
(2)Imperial College : 1.5 to 2.6;
(3)HKU: 1.9 to 2.3;
(4)Chinese researchers : 3.3 to 5.5;
(5)WHO : 1.4 to 2.5 (I suspect WHO basically adopted the research model of Imperial College)

These different set of R0's remind me of being in a clock shop which has different times and consequently which is the one that is telling the correct time or none of them.

Secondly, IMO the R0 is predominantly not for public consumption because its purpose is to provide an impact and risk assessment landscape of a potential pandemic. The assessment is to allow the relevant governments to understand what it might be confronted with in terms of potential scale of infection - how far and how quickly. This would enable the planning and development of a more comprehensive set of containment and resource deployment strategies.Underlying these models is the unverifiable unreported and undetected infected population that will continue to infect others. For example, the Chinese government has to deal with not only the confirmed cases but also the much larger infected population not caught through the tracking system. We have seen numbers quoted like 44,000 by HKU to 100,000 by the professor from Imperial College.

Finally I have to say that none of the R0's quoted can provide me any information I can meaningfully interpret of the developing situation. As such I decided to build my own model for my own consumption to at least understand the ongoing scale of the confirmed cases in the short term. Please don't ask me to share the model as I have no intention to do so.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'd be cautious about reaching that conclusion as we really need more data. Give it another two weeks and then we'll have a better idea of what's happening.

The virus is suspected to have an incubation period of 2-14days.

The quarantine started 7 days ago.
Since then, Wuhan has been in lockdown and fear has kept everyone isolated from one another.
The number of new infections should have fallen off a cliff at that time.

If that has happened, we should see a confirmed peak within the next 7 days, then a rapid decline in new cases.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The problem now is that the number of cases outside of China, and from people who didn't come from China, boomed.
 
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