Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

solarz

Brigadier
This is my biggest worry:

If everyone in China is fully vaccinated, and China (forever) continues sporadic lockdowns to achieve 'zero Infections' goal....forever.....

then it's trivially easy for US CIA to cause outbreaks, just to shutdowns Chinese cities. It only takes like a dozen cases to lockdown a major metropolis like Nanjing or Yangzhou.

Just think US CIA can seriously fuck up the Chinese economy via endless lockdowns forever... a truly effective 'economic containment of China that's better than any US tech bans or US trade war can achieve. Lockdowns will just encourage manufacturing to move to different countries, depleting Chinese of resources and jobs.

I think that worry is premature. Nobody really knows how covid will play out, so right now the prudent course is to aim for zero cases.

On a related note, the reason the West is failing to contain covid and this is dragging on for so long is precisely because every time the cases go down, they think it's time to party. A dozen cases will quickly morph into thousands if you don't take any measures to curb its spread. China may be locking down some cities right now, but don't forget that the Chinese people had been enjoying a year of freedom while every other country in the world is doing on again off again lockdowns.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
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Just for LOLZ, I have a cleaner way of understanding vaccine efficacy.

Hypothetical situation:

Say you @Temstar are Un-vaccinated, and a COVID person comes up to you, and Sneezes in your Face. See this Gweilo below:
1628729486972.png

The probability of you (un-vaccinated person) getting infected is nearly 80-100% right?

But what if you got Pfizer vaccine with 42% efficacy (e.g. 42% reduced risk of infection compared to un-vaccinated).... what does that mean for your probability of infection after vaccination with Pfizer?

Probability of Infection for Un-vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo (from story above)Pfizer Vaccine Efficacy against Delta-variantProbability of Infection for a Vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo% Difference (Unvax vs. Vaxxed)
80%42%0.80*(1-0.42)=49.6%33.6%
85%42%0.85*(1-0.42)=49.3%35.7%
90%42%0.90*(1-0.42)=52.2%37.8%
95%42%0.95*(1-0.42)=55.1%39.9%
100%42%1.0*(1-0.42)= 58%42%
(Phead128 analysis.... vaccinated have lower probability of infection compared to unvaccinated, but still kinda high)

For Moderna, we will do the same calculations if you were vaccinated with Moderna against Delta-variant.

Probability of Infection for Un-vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo (from story above)Moderna Vaccine Efficacy against Delta-variantProbability of Infection for a Vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo% Difference (Unvax vs. Vaxxed)
80%76%0.80*(1-0.72)=19.2%60.8%
85%76%0.85*(1-0.72)=20.4%64.6%
90%76%0.90*(1-0.72)=21.6%68.4%
95%76%0.95*(1-0.72)=22.8%72.2%
100%76%1.0*(1-0.72)= 24.0%76%
(vaccinated still lower probability of infection, but it's definitely non-zero)

So the "Vaccine Efficacy" means an individual has X% less chance (reduced risk) of infection compared to unvaccinated individual. In other words, "Vaccine Efficacy" is a Percent Risk reduction from a Fraction. Even if you are 95% risk-reduction compared to unvaccinated, there is still a chance of infection.

Thank you class, class is dismissed :),
Professor Phead128
 
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Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
But in REALITY, nobody is going walk up to you and Cough in your Face.....

Let's say hypothetically, @HybridHypothesis is Un-vaccinated and wearings a face-mask..... He goes grocery shopping and bumps into a friend in the store, and talks to you. This friend has COVID! but is wearing a mask too.

1628732223714.png

The probability of you (un-vaccinated person) getting infected is pretty low, likely 1-5% right? (hypothetically for simplicity sake)


Probability of Infection for Un-vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo (from story above)Pfizer Vaccine Efficacy against Delta-variantProbability of Infection for a Vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo% Difference (Unvax vs. Vaxxed)
1%42%0.01*(1-0.42)=0.6%0.4%
2%42%0.02*(1-0.42)=1.2%0.8%
3%42%0.03*(1-0.42)=1.7%1.3%
4%42%0.04*(1-0.42)=2.3%1.7%
5%42%0.05*(1-0.42)= 2.9%2.1%
(Phead128 analysis.... vaccinated have lower probability of infection compared to unvaccinated, but not by that much.

For Moderna, we will do the same calculations if you were vaccinated with Moderna against Delta-variant.
Probability of Infection for Un-vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo (from story above)Moderna Vaccine Efficacy against Delta-variantProbability of Infection for a Vaccinated person being coughed on by Gweilo% Difference (Unvax vs. Vaxxed)
1%76%0.01*(1-0.72)=0.3%0.7%
2%76%0.02*(1-0.72)=0.6%1.4%
3%76%0.03*(1-0.72)=0.8%2.2%
4%76%0.04*(1-0.72)=1.1%2.9%
5%76%0.05*(1-0.72)= 1.4%3.6%
(vaccinated lower, but not by that much)

You can see, even though Moderna is superior to Pfizer, 76% risk-reduction compared to unvaccinated compared to only 42% risk-reduction.... the actual probability of infection for an vaccinated person isn't that much different. That's because the low-probability of infection for unvaccinated to begin with. Vaccine efficacy is a % risk reduction of a fraction, and if that fraction is low to begin with, then it doesn't matter if a vaccine is +30% better than another vaccine.... The rates are very low either way.

That's why with social-distancing and mask wearing, the effective difference between Chinese vaccines and Western vaccine is very small and don't matter in the real world, since the baseline infection rate for unvaccinated is very low with lockdowns/restrictions.

Conclusion: Get any vaccine, any risk-reduction is better than no risk-reduction, and all vaccines offer similar protection at low-risk transmission scenarios regardless of +30% differences in vaccine efficacy. Chinese vaccines are NOT inferior in low-risk transmission scenarios, even if it's +30% less efficacy than Pfizer/Moderna. The difference literally doesn't matter in low-risk transmission scenarios.

Thank you friends for your time and reading my long posts!
Best,
Phead128
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It is a wonder that after the abject failure and horror of their respective covid shitshows, we still have people with lemming leanings wanting China to adopt the west’s failure tactics and effectively allow covid to do its worst.

Those crying about theoretical economic damage seems to need reading comprehension refreshes since they cannot understand who’s economy is booming and who’s is in shambles.

Yes, travel restrictions are a pain and a burden, but it is nothing compared to the pain and cost of having covid run rampant through your population. And that is just the short term immediately self evident costs from deaths, the true cost is almost certainly going to dwarf that as the full extent and long term costs of long covid becomes better documented and understood.

On TCM vs western medicine, one should not blindly worship either. Western medicine is scientifically proven, in mice. Never forget that critically important fine print.

With western medicine, it’s only the drugs that are proven to be effective in mice that advances to next stage trials, and have to pass many many more hurdles before human clinical trials.

TCM is based on the real world results of thousands of years of clinical trials.

The problem with TCM is not in its effectiveness, but in all the fake nonsense that inevitably results from such organic discovery over such a long time.

It cannot be totally trusted, but I see significant potential for massive benefits if better, scientific methods were used to further refine Chinese TCM formula to find the core active ingredients.
 

solarz

Brigadier
TCM is based on the real world results of thousands of years of clinical trials.

The problem with TCM is not in its effectiveness, but in all the fake nonsense that inevitably results from such organic discovery over such a long time.

It cannot be totally trusted, but I see significant potential for massive benefits if better, scientific methods were used to further refine Chinese TCM formula to find the core active ingredients.

The problem with TCM is its pre-scientific theoretical foundation, and this affects even herbal treatments as the theoretical foundation plays a big role in determining which herbs to use for a particular set of symptoms.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
It is a wonder that after the abject failure and horror of their respective covid shitshows, we still have people with lemming leanings wanting China to adopt the west’s failure tactics and effectively allow covid to do its worst.
Nobody is saying that..... 99.99% of vaccinated people survive COVID.

I'm just saying once 100% of population is vaccinated in China, then we can adopt a laissez-faire attitude. No need for lockdowns anymore.

We do credit China's success....
Those crying about theoretical economic damage seems to need reading comprehension refreshes since they cannot understand who’s economy is booming and who’s is in shambles.
Nobody is doubting that.

All we are saying is... once 100% of population is vaccinated, and there is Zero Deaths.... then what is the point of Sporadic lockdowns to achieve Zero Infections..... when there is Indian Variant Factory next door.... and COVID is endemics in the Bat, Deer, Dogs, Cats, population.... it cannot be eradicated....
Yes, travel restrictions are a pain and a burden, but it is nothing compared to the pain and cost of having covid run rampant through your population.

COVID can run 'rampant' through a 100% vaccinated population, but at worst they get mild/moderate flu/cold-like symptoms and nobody dies.

Is that worth all the sporadic lockdowns that has the potential to shift supply chains elsewhere? Lose manufacturing? Just because of flu-like symptoms? You can't be scared of COVID forever after mass-vaccination....

Once China achieves 100% vaccination, then no need to be North Korea paranoid crazy about infections... Deaths matter more than infections!
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
Eradication was the original goal based on our limited understanding of 'novel coronavirus' in early 2020. We are learning more and more about novel virus everyday, including mutation, transmission, and vaccine efficacy.

'Zero COVID Deaths' is a more realistic goal that China will (later) adopt once everyone is vaccinated.



I agree that China should continue lockdowns and restrictions until after:
  • Winter Olympics are finished,
  • mRNA vaccines by WalVax are available,
  • children's vaccine is available, booster shots are available,
  • and over 80-90% of population is fully vaccinated.
Followed by a phased gradual transition to 'living with virus' with booster shots.

But indefinitely??? don't get me started.... I can tell you a million reasons why indefinite Zero Infections is a bad strategy.

Completely agree with the above except the following:
  • Winter Olympics are finished: we can have winter olympics without lockdowns if the other 3 conditions are met
  • mRNA vaccines by WalVax are available: not everyone needs Walvax, SCB-2019 may also be available as well as the other mRNA from Tibet Rhodiola, and various other sub-unit vaccines in Gen 2
  • children's vaccine is available, booster shots are available: already starting to mobilize this
  • and over 80-90% of population is fully vaccinated: at the rate we are going, this should be accomplished by October
Realistically, China is probably only a few months (2-3) from reaching the 80-90% vaccination rate, and overall production of other vaccines is still increasing that we could probably booster everyone within the 6-month mark very soon (keep in mind we only need to boost about 30 million people or 2 days vaccinations as of today because very little people were fully vaxxed by end of Feb.) The only risk right now is if the 2nd gen vaccines also get thier efficacy degraded below 80%, since that would mean we might have to double boost using cansino or ZF2001.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
Everyone knows lockdowns and masks are only temporary measures to minimize deaths long enough for the entire population to be vaccinated, since 99% of vaccinated do not die.

Once everyone vaccinated (including children) and nobody dies, who gives a shit about zero infections?

The only reason China's infection count is low is due to the country's drastic anti-Covid measures. If China relaxes vigilance, the infection count will zoom way up. The vast new reservoir of coronavirus could easily produce new variants against which existing vaccines are useless. And then China would be more like India and the US.


China already won the propaganda war on low deaths. Zero COVID once everyone is vaccinated is expensive and hurts Chinese GDP in the long term...

China could easily lose the propaganda war if it surrendered and allowed the virus to burn completely out of control, just like India and the US. That is why many articles advising surrender have recently appeared in the West. These articles are not sincere; they want to sucker China into relaxing its zero tolerance policy.

As for GDP, I would say 5% growth this year, despite the strong anti-Covid measures, is plenty. Imagine how much the economy would suffer if the virus got out of control. The Middle Kingdom must never relax.
 
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