Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Guys, if any Western dweeb says China's case numbers are too low (Insinuate fabrication of data), just politely remind them China and HK eliminated the first coronavirus pandemic (SARS in 2003) into extinction, so that there is not a single reported infection of SARS coronavirus since 2003, so it's within the realm of possibility of China controlling and eradicating the virus.

Also, remind them that tons of Western foreigners are walking around mask less, they can confirm that it's practically controlled. Otherwise, challenge them for photos of mass graves, overflowing COVID wards, long lines at hospitals. Ask them why CIA satellites cannot capture mass graves?
 

4Runner

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes. But the Soviet Union also gave China massive support. They sent advisors and gave equipment from top to bottom. The fact is, China got their nuclear bomb with help from the USSR, and even their launcher program, got a head start with technical assistance from the USSR like getting the technical specifications and copies of the R-1 rocket. The Tu-16 was also transferred. Stalin gave Manchuria back to Mao, when it was firmly in Soviet control then. He even gave back territory which used to be part of the Russian Empire at one point. I could continue with more examples like this.

I think China is probably the country which got the most technical assistance from the USSR. None of the other countries, even those in the Warsaw Pact, got assistance as pervasive as China did. To a large degree they did use this assistance, otherwise how could a formerly ruined country build tanks and fighter jets so quickly, but a lot of it was wasted or ignored.

North Korea and Cuba had vibrant economies for the first two decades. But once the Soviets pulled some of the support out they started to collapse. Both countries are simply not large enough to have a proper self-reliant internal economy while the Soviet Union and China could. India was always a basket case I think.

Even as late as 1962 the Soviet Union refused to supply nuclear weapons to India against China when they were having the Indo-China war.
Yeah. That part of history between China and USSR from 1950 to 1962 is complex. I was educated from one side. But I believe that the 156 industrial projects are more important to China than all foreign investment from 1979 to 2001. From 2001 on ward, China is already an industrial giant that can hold its own. So no matter what personal feelings the Chinese have for various reasons, one cannot deny that historical fact the USSR contributed immensely to the early industrialization of China.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Guys, if any Western dweeb says China's case numbers are too low (Insinuate fabrication of data), just politely remind them China and HK eliminated the first coronavirus pandemic (SARS in 2003) into extinction, so that there is not a single reported infection of SARS coronavirus since 2003, so it's within the realm of possibility of China controlling and eradicating the virus.

Also, remind them that tons of Western foreigners are walking around mask less, they can confirm that it's practically controlled. Otherwise, challenge them for photos of mass graves, overflowing COVID wards, long lines at hospitals. Ask them why CIA satellites cannot capture mass graves?
They're never going to take that challenge or bait since the search query is going to result for their favorite new ally, the Asian superpower, India. That propaganda would blow up on their idiotic faces.
 

HybridHypothesis

Junior Member
Registered Member
Guys, if any Western dweeb says China's case numbers are too low (Insinuate fabrication of data), just politely remind them China and HK eliminated the first coronavirus pandemic (SARS in 2003) into extinction, so that there is not a single reported infection of SARS coronavirus since 2003, so it's within the realm of possibility of China controlling and eradicating the virus.

Also, remind them that tons of Western foreigners are walking around mask less, they can confirm that it's practically controlled. Otherwise, challenge them for photos of mass graves, overflowing COVID wards, long lines at hospitals. Ask them why CIA satellites cannot capture mass graves?
If God punishes the sinful with plagues and ruin, and if the West is in ruins because of the pandemic, then it follows that the Westerners are full of sin indeed.

The words of a sinner hold little weight before man, and none before God.
 

weig2000

Captain
Yes. But the Soviet Union also gave China massive support. They sent advisors and gave equipment from top to bottom. The fact is, China got their nuclear bomb with help from the USSR, and even their launcher program, got a head start with technical assistance from the USSR like getting the technical specifications and copies of the R-1 rocket. The Tu-16 was also transferred. Stalin gave Manchuria back to Mao, when it was firmly in Soviet control then. He even gave back territory which used to be part of the Russian Empire at one point. I could continue with more examples like this.

I think China is probably the country which got the most technical assistance from the USSR. None of the other countries, even those in the Warsaw Pact, got assistance as pervasive as China did. To a large degree they did use this assistance, otherwise how could a formerly ruined country build tanks and fighter jets so quickly, but a lot of it was wasted or ignored.

North Korea and Cuba had vibrant economies for the first two decades. But once the Soviets pulled some of the support out they started to collapse. Both countries are simply not large enough to have a proper self-reliant internal economy while the Soviet Union and China could. India was always a basket case I think.

Even as late as 1962 the Soviet Union refused to supply nuclear weapons to India against China when they were having the Indo-China war.

I noticed that you have a clear pro-Russia bias, which in itself is OK, as long as it is based on facts and with the proper context.

Yes, Soviet Union was the biggest supporter of China's early industrialization drive right after the founding of PRC. The well-known 156 large industrial projects that SU helped China build laid the foundation of China's heavy and defense industries. Soviet Union also provided China with an experimental nuclear reactor for China to do research in the '50s, which definitely helped China get started its own nuclear weapon program. But No, the SU did not provide China with nuclear weapons, much of the credit goes to the Chinese.

But it was not free lunch for China from the Soviet Union; most of the aid and concessions from SU were hard earned and well deserved.

Stalin did not give Manchuria back to Mao. That is simply untrue. The communists were undoubtedly benefited from the presence of the Red Army in Manchuria right after the WW2. But the Russians could not blatantly help the communists due to the treaty with the nationalist ROC. In fact, the Nationalist Army had defeated the communist troops, occupied majority of the cities and territories in Manchuria and drove the communist troops way up to northern Manchuria in the early days of the civil war. Mao won back some key concessions to the SU when he was visiting Moscow negotiating the Soviet Union-China alliance treaty in 1950 after some hard bargains. The SU gave up all their privileges in Manchuria in the '50s when the two countries were in honeymoon.

The Soviet Union badly needed strong allies back then when facing the western containment led by the US. The Cold War was clearly underway after the 1948 West Berlin crisis.

It was Korean War that had changed Stalin's opinion of PRC and the CCP. The performance of PLA and PRC in general during the Korean War greatly exceeded the expectation of Stalin and indeed, that of the rest of the world. By going into the Korean War resolutely even without the promised air support from SU Air Force initially and still performed impressively against the strongest military in the world, PLA demonstrated its capability and PRC made its choice of alliance abundantly clear. SU then threw its support to PRC almost without reservation during and immediately after the war. Khrushchev continued that policy. In fact, he needed China's support and solidarity more due to both external and internal reasons.

But PRC was not the biggest beneficiary of SU assistance, that honor went to India. India had received more Soviet assistance than China had by 1960. And the economic and defense assistance continued long after the breakup of SU and PRC.

China clearly made most of the aid it got from the SU among all the recipients, which magnified the apparent benefits. But you can't mix up the competence and credit. The same story repeated after Russia and China rapprochement post the breakup of the Soviet Union.

As I stated last year in the Ladakh thread (IIRC), China benefited greatly in its respective relationship with SU/Russia and the US when their relationships were close. But China was hardly the one-sided beneficiary of the relationships: Russia needed China to stand up to the West and the US China to contain the SU. China was not the only countries benefiting from allying with a superpower. It's just that China's competency and capability made her a clear winner.
 

spring2017

New Member
Registered Member
one cannot deny that historical fact the USSR contributed immensely to the early industrialization of China.
Very true. That was the largest technology transfer in the history of human race.

Not to mention that the Red Army defeated 500K Japanese army in Manchuria in a brilliant campaign which sealed the defeat of Imperialist Japan in WWII, before the dropping of atomic bomb by the U.S. imperialists.

Too much lie and miseducation has covered the fact about how much socialist USSR (not capitalist Russia) had helped China before and after her liberation. That's another illustration race and nation is not the determinate factor as opposed to class nature.
 
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spring2017

New Member
Registered Member
But it was not free lunch for China from the Soviet Union
Why would any self-respecting person ask for free lunch? Do you think the U.S. will ever give China any free lunch? The U.S. imperialists will not give China any lunch even when China is willing to overpay (hence the technology war).

Stalin was a nationalist, thus not a true communist in the sense of Marx and Lenin, who were internationalist. But despite of Stalin's nationalist narrow-mindedness and oppressive dictatorship, the class nature of USSR made it very different from the U.S.

Domestically, the USSR's public owned economic system made it an industrial power and working people had descent lives (Human Development Index was in the top tier according to the U.N.).

Internationally, the USSR provided technology ad material aid to backward countries such as China and India, and many other countries all over the world. While the U.S. extracted huge profit from developing countries.

The generosity of the USSR stemmed from the fact the those technology and material did not belong to any person or company (China is similar). That's why only a public owned world economic system can resolve the severe problems our world is facing.
 
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weig2000

Captain
Why would any self-respecting person ask for free lunch? Do you think the U.S. will ever give China any free lunch? The U.S. imperialists will not give China any lunch even when China is willing to overpay (hence the technology war).

Stalin was a nationalist, thus not a true communist in the sense of Marx and Lenin, who were internationalist. But despite of Stalin's nationalist narrow-mindedness and oppressive dictatorship, the class nature of USSR made it very different from the U.S.

Domestically, the USSR's public owned economic system made it an industrial power and working people had descent lives (Human Development Index was in the top tier according to the U.N.).

Internationally, the USSR provided technology ad material aid to backward countries such as China and India, and many other countries all over the world. While the U.S. extracted huge profit from developing countries.

The generosity of the USSR stemmed from the fact the those technology and material did not belong to any person or company (China is similar). That's why only a public owned world economic system can resolve the severe problems our world is facing.

Not sure what exactly you tried to say above. I have no intention or interest to argue with it one way or the other.

But since you were responding to my words, let me just to clarify it if it helps: it's all based on national interest, even if the economic assistance appeared to have come from one direction.
 

spring2017

New Member
Registered Member
it's all based on national interest, even if the economic assistance appeared to have come from one direction.
Sorry I did not make it clearer. You are correct that actions from the state are fundamentally based on interest.

I am trying to say, however, that it is not "national" interest, but class interest, the interest of the ruling class, not people make up the nation.

One could argue that a being friendly to China has its obvious benefit, but not every state see that from their class point of view. A socialist China might be beneficial to a socialist USSR (even a nationalist one), but is a mortal threat to capitalist USA.
 

HybridHypothesis

Junior Member
Registered Member
coronavirus is old news, make way for the black fungus pandemic.

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The state of Rajasthan, which has also reported cases of black fungus, has declared it an epidemic and a "notifiable disease." Two other states, Haryana and Telangana, have also declared it a notifiable disease, to be reported to the central Indian government.

maybe smearing cow shit as a "cure" wasnt the best idea?
 
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