Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspective?

kyanges

Junior Member
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

You simple you do not understand why they have rounded fuselages when it is obvious they can build flatened fuselages, and the answer is simply they have different contradictions to solve and different ways to solve them, plus they know the limits of stealth.

In the case of Sukhoi the designed a fighter with high performance with higher top speed and supercruise speed than F-22 according to Sukhoi.

it simply means that at long ranges is pretty stealthy but flies faster with longer range missiles and IRST the jet stays out the the range of the enemy, plus the rounded fuselage allows for lower drag in both T-50 and F-35 and the tail booms are aligned with the intake so the RCS signature laterally is very low

So regardless what you say, you do not form part of Sukhoi or Lockheed Martin or do you? unless you are, Lockheed Martin or Sukhoi won`t care about youir opinion since they know facts about stealth you do not know and they have chosen that configuration to optimize their jets without caring for stealth.

Stardave and Mysterre, this is as close to a straight answer agreement you're going to get from Mig-29. He's saying the bottom of the T-50 is intentionally not as stealthy. As Mig-29 says, Sukhoi simply had other design priorities, and this is the result. I strongly suggest ending it here.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Stardave and Mysterre, this is as close to a straight answer agreement you're going to get from Mig-29. He's saying the bottom of the T-50 is intentionally not as stealthy. As Mig-29 says, Sukhoi simply had other design priorities, and this is the result. I strongly suggest ending it here.

it is less stealthy, form an angular sector it won`t use to aproach its quarry, but is not as unstealthy as people think, the F-35 laterally has good continous curvature and planform alignment and is also less stealthy from an angle it won`t use.

T-50 traded some planform alignment for the gains in performance and weight reduction.

I do not think the Russians will modify the nacelles with 2D flat nozzles, it could happen but it seems they have chosen as the F-35 designers that gains in performance are worthed.

F-117 has a diamond shaped airframe to be stealthy from many angles but at the cost of performance, F-22 also compromised too, it only used planform alignment in some sectors, the most likely angles where enemy radars will see it but used continuos curvature to gain in performance..

The russians are only worry probably with regards the IR signature the nozzles will have
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Stardave and Mysterre, this is as close to a straight answer agreement you're going to get from Mig-29. He's saying the bottom of the T-50 is intentionally not as stealthy. As Mig-29 says, Sukhoi simply had other design priorities, and this is the result. I strongly suggest ending it here.
Well clearly Sukhoi and L-M both had other design priorities. This does not need to be said. It doesn't mean either aircraft is well-designed. And that's the point. Mig-29 is trying to say that because L-M and Sukhoi designed them the way they designed them, it is simply not possible for the designs to be poor in any way; otherwise they would have been designed differently. And to that I say: ROFLMAO :D
 

stardave

Junior Member
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Mig-29 thinks there are magical shapes on other parts of T-50 when combined with paint, will make it just as stealth as F-22 and J-20 (whom will also use paint.).

As to why? None of us are working on F-35, F-22, J-20 and T-50, therefore we don't know anything, and those people that are working on them must know exactly what they are doing, and since they are the experts, so whatever they build must be near perfect, especially the T-50 engineers.

And any publications no matter how knowledgeable they are or how how scientific they are, can only support the claim that T-50 is good, if it does not, those publications must be very biased against T-50, and thus cannot be trusted.
 

kyanges

Junior Member
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Like I said, if you're looking for MiG-29 to just agree that the underside of the T-50 isn't as stealthy as its competitors, then that statement he made about the T-50's stealth suffering in some circumstances, is as close as you're gonna get. I'm begging you guys, please just stop.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Here's a interesting article on the F35 published in Forbes. You can make what you want from it.

ttp://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2012/06/11/pentagons-best-kept-secret-f-35-fighter-is-progressing-nicely/2/

"..............The reality is that for the third straight year flight tests are ahead of schedule, the cost to build each plane is falling fast, and international partners are so enthused that new customers are getting in line for the F-35 on a regular basis (South Korea will be next). So how come you don’t know any of this? The reason you don’t know it is that political appointees have decided they can score points with Congress by attacking their own program, and national media always lead with the most sensational information

For instance, Pentagon officials recently disclosed that the cost of building and operating the F-35 had risen to $1.5 trillion — without mentioning that a third of that total is unprovable estimates of future inflation and two-thirds of supposed increases from the program baseline reflect changes in how costs are calculated rather than real increases. Officials also didn’t mention it would cost two or three times more to stick with the current fleet of fighters, given the cost of maintaining aging aircraft. Most news accounts just cited the trillion-dollar price-tag, preferring to stick with the “troubled program” theme. Easy to write, no thinking required.

There’s another side to this story, and it’s mostly positive. It helps explain why none of the three services receiving the plane is going to cancel its version and why none of the allies who signed on to the program when economies were stronger is now going to back out. F-35 is well on its way to being the most capable, cost-effective tactical aircraft in the history of warfare, and you can see that fact clearly reflected in how the flight-test program is progressing, the production cost is falling, and other countries are jockeying to get the plane.

Flight tests. Let’s start with the flight tests that are steadily verifying all the performance features of the aircraft. The program has surpassed its goals for flight testing in each of the last three years, doing 15 percent better than planned in 2011 and 20 percent better than planned so far in 2012. Collectively, the three versions of the F-35 have now flown well over 2,000 times, accomplishing more than a quarter of the planned tasks in a comprehensive testing regime. By the end of this year, the most common version of the plane — the one that will be used by the Air Force and exported to most foreign customers — will be 45 percent of the way through all its flight tests.

There has been a lot of talk lately about the dangers of producing F-35s before testing is completed, because if problems are found then planes already built will supposedly require costly fixes. So far, though, the danger seems to be mainly theoretical: Wikipedia says the price-tag for correcting problems uncovered in testing is $1.3 billion, which is less than one-half of one-percent of the production cost for 3,000 domestic and foreign fighters. Another concern has been delays in software; however, as of today 95 percent of the plane’s airborne software is either being used in flight tests or being tested in labs. No show-stoppers in sight, either in the hardware or in the software.

Few outsiders realize how smoothly the F-35 flight-test schedule is unfolding, so here are a few milestones of progress thus far this year. On January 18 the Air Force version performed its first night flight. On March 22 it conducted its first night-time refueling mission. On April 21 it completed its first aerial-refueling mission while carrying weapons. The Marine version accomplished the same refueling with weapons on board two week earlier; designed to land on a dime almost anywhere, the Marine variant has performed over 500 short takeoffs and over 300 vertical landings. The flights generally go well, which is why the testing schedule is so far ahead of plan.

Production Costs. The factor that usually trips up new weapons programs is cost, because while nobody in Congress understands how to measure the stealthiness of an F-35, everybody thinks they understand a price-tag. Pentagon leaders have thoroughly confused this issue by making it sound like the cost of F-35 is going up while actually taking huge amounts of money out of the program each year. In 2011 they cut 122 planes and $10 billion from near-term spending plans for the program; in 2012 they cut another 124 planes and $9 billion; and now in 2013 they have proposed cutting 179 planes and $15 billion. Cutting the rate at which F-35s are produced definitely increases the cost of each plane, but during the Obama years the program has become more of a piggy bank than a money pit for Pentagon planners.

Obviously, any money that already has been spent can’t be recovered. However, when you look at the cost going forward to build each new plane, that’s coming down — and fast. The “unit recurring flyaway” cost for the most common variant of F-35 fell below $150 million each in the third low-rate production lot and will fall below $100 million in the fifth lot currently being negotiated. By the time its gets to the tenth production lot, the recurring flyaway cost of the most common variant will be approaching what legacy F-16 and F/A-18 fighters sell for today. Granted, that’s just what it costs to “drive it off the lot,” and doesn’t include items like training and spare parts. On the other hand, the price-tag on legacy fighters doesn’t include all the equipment they will need in combat (the F-35 price-tag does), and older fighters don’t have the F-35′s stealth.

Foreign Partners. The F-35 effort was conceived in the Clinton years as a program that would provide next-generation fighters not only for the United States, but for eight other countries. The United Kingdom contributed $2.5 billion to its development, while Italy and the Netherlands each contributed $1 billion. Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Turkey each contributed over $100 million. Thus, any sign that these overseas partners are wavering in their commitment is taken as evidence that trouble may lie ahead for the program.

However, support for the program has remained strong despite recent weakening of the global economy. Norway’s defense minister stated in March, “We remain confident that the F-35 represents the best capability for the best value possible.” Australia’s air force chief said last week that the 100 F-35s his nation needs are “still affordable” within a budget range established in 2003. The United Kingdom has shifted the variant it plans to buy while remaining dedicated to the program. Even Italy, the country which faces the direst financial circumstances among the original partners, has said that while it will trim its purchases of the plane, it still intends to build them indigenously for its military.

Meanwhile, Israel, Japan and Singapore have all indicated an interest in purchasing the F-35, while Asian observers say South Korea may soon become its newest customer. International interest is so strong that other countries are likely to buy as many F-35s over the next five years as the U.S. government, and eventually will buy more than the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps programs of record combined. So the F-35 isn’t just going to be the most widely used fighter in the world for the next several decades, it is also going to be one of America’s biggest export items............."
 

stardave

Junior Member
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Here's a interesting article on the F35 published in Forbes. You can make what you want from it.

ttp://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2012/06/11/pentagons-best-kept-secret-f-35-fighter-is-progressing-nicely/2/

"..............The reality is that for the third straight year flight tests are ahead of schedule, the cost to build each plane is falling fast, and international partners are so enthused that new customers are getting in line for the F-35 on a regular basis (South Korea will be next). So how come you don’t know any of this? The reason you don’t know it is that political appointees have decided they can score points with Congress by attacking their own program, and national media always lead with the most sensational information

For instance, Pentagon officials recently disclosed that the cost of building and operating the F-35 had risen to $1.5 trillion — without mentioning that a third of that total is unprovable estimates of future inflation and two-thirds of supposed increases from the program baseline reflect changes in how costs are calculated rather than real increases. Officials also didn’t mention it would cost two or three times more to stick with the current fleet of fighters, given the cost of maintaining aging aircraft. Most news accounts just cited the trillion-dollar price-tag, preferring to stick with the “troubled program” theme. Easy to write, no thinking required.

There’s another side to this story, and it’s mostly positive. It helps explain why none of the three services receiving the plane is going to cancel its version and why none of the allies who signed on to the program when economies were stronger is now going to back out. F-35 is well on its way to being the most capable, cost-effective tactical aircraft in the history of warfare, and you can see that fact clearly reflected in how the flight-test program is progressing, the production cost is falling, and other countries are jockeying to get the plane.

Flight tests. Let’s start with the flight tests that are steadily verifying all the performance features of the aircraft. The program has surpassed its goals for flight testing in each of the last three years, doing 15 percent better than planned in 2011 and 20 percent better than planned so far in 2012. Collectively, the three versions of the F-35 have now flown well over 2,000 times, accomplishing more than a quarter of the planned tasks in a comprehensive testing regime. By the end of this year, the most common version of the plane — the one that will be used by the Air Force and exported to most foreign customers — will be 45 percent of the way through all its flight tests.

There has been a lot of talk lately about the dangers of producing F-35s before testing is completed, because if problems are found then planes already built will supposedly require costly fixes. So far, though, the danger seems to be mainly theoretical: Wikipedia says the price-tag for correcting problems uncovered in testing is $1.3 billion, which is less than one-half of one-percent of the production cost for 3,000 domestic and foreign fighters. Another concern has been delays in software; however, as of today 95 percent of the plane’s airborne software is either being used in flight tests or being tested in labs. No show-stoppers in sight, either in the hardware or in the software.

Few outsiders realize how smoothly the F-35 flight-test schedule is unfolding, so here are a few milestones of progress thus far this year. On January 18 the Air Force version performed its first night flight. On March 22 it conducted its first night-time refueling mission. On April 21 it completed its first aerial-refueling mission while carrying weapons. The Marine version accomplished the same refueling with weapons on board two week earlier; designed to land on a dime almost anywhere, the Marine variant has performed over 500 short takeoffs and over 300 vertical landings. The flights generally go well, which is why the testing schedule is so far ahead of plan.

Production Costs. The factor that usually trips up new weapons programs is cost, because while nobody in Congress understands how to measure the stealthiness of an F-35, everybody thinks they understand a price-tag. Pentagon leaders have thoroughly confused this issue by making it sound like the cost of F-35 is going up while actually taking huge amounts of money out of the program each year. In 2011 they cut 122 planes and $10 billion from near-term spending plans for the program; in 2012 they cut another 124 planes and $9 billion; and now in 2013 they have proposed cutting 179 planes and $15 billion. Cutting the rate at which F-35s are produced definitely increases the cost of each plane, but during the Obama years the program has become more of a piggy bank than a money pit for Pentagon planners.

Obviously, any money that already has been spent can’t be recovered. However, when you look at the cost going forward to build each new plane, that’s coming down — and fast. The “unit recurring flyaway” cost for the most common variant of F-35 fell below $150 million each in the third low-rate production lot and will fall below $100 million in the fifth lot currently being negotiated. By the time its gets to the tenth production lot, the recurring flyaway cost of the most common variant will be approaching what legacy F-16 and F/A-18 fighters sell for today. Granted, that’s just what it costs to “drive it off the lot,” and doesn’t include items like training and spare parts. On the other hand, the price-tag on legacy fighters doesn’t include all the equipment they will need in combat (the F-35 price-tag does), and older fighters don’t have the F-35′s stealth.

Foreign Partners. The F-35 effort was conceived in the Clinton years as a program that would provide next-generation fighters not only for the United States, but for eight other countries. The United Kingdom contributed $2.5 billion to its development, while Italy and the Netherlands each contributed $1 billion. Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Turkey each contributed over $100 million. Thus, any sign that these overseas partners are wavering in their commitment is taken as evidence that trouble may lie ahead for the program.

However, support for the program has remained strong despite recent weakening of the global economy. Norway’s defense minister stated in March, “We remain confident that the F-35 represents the best capability for the best value possible.” Australia’s air force chief said last week that the 100 F-35s his nation needs are “still affordable” within a budget range established in 2003. The United Kingdom has shifted the variant it plans to buy while remaining dedicated to the program. Even Italy, the country which faces the direst financial circumstances among the original partners, has said that while it will trim its purchases of the plane, it still intends to build them indigenously for its military.

Meanwhile, Israel, Japan and Singapore have all indicated an interest in purchasing the F-35, while Asian observers say South Korea may soon become its newest customer. International interest is so strong that other countries are likely to buy as many F-35s over the next five years as the U.S. government, and eventually will buy more than the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps programs of record combined. So the F-35 isn’t just going to be the most widely used fighter in the world for the next several decades, it is also going to be one of America’s biggest export items............."

Let's see, plane was originally be ready in 2010, and mass production in 2012. But let's forget about that.

This is a quote of someone else respond to this article.

So it was ahead of testing schedule for three straight years, but it started testing in 2006. It seem the program was able to meet its testing schedule after Gates removed the JSF Program Manager in Feb 2010, and withheld $614 million in payments to Lockheed because of costs and delays. Then it was said in 2012, in order to avoid further redesign delays, the DoD accepted a reduced combat radius for the F-35A and a longer takeoff run for the F-35B. The F-35B's estimated radius has also decreased 15% from initial JSF goal. It seem now meeting schedule is more important than meeting design goal.

Cost for correcting problems uncovered in testing according to the article is $1.3 billion, that's more than the "development fund" contributed by the six partner countries Italy, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway, and Turkey combined. And this is just to fix design flaws in existing aircrafts, not building new aircrafts.

As for unit cost, I'll give JSF the benefit of doubt that it can come down to approximately $100 million in 2016 and beyond. But still it's not a cheap price. F-35B/C would cost nearly 20% more than the F-35A.

So basically, if you keep lowering the bar low enough, of course it will meet it is goals.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Mig-29 thinks there are magical shapes on other parts of T-50 when combined with paint, will make it just as stealth as F-22 and J-20 (whom will also use paint.).

As to why? None of us are working on F-35, F-22, J-20 and T-50, therefore we don't know anything, and those people that are working on them must know exactly what they are doing, and since they are the experts, so whatever they build must be near perfect, especially the T-50 engineers.

And any publications no matter how knowledgeable they are or how how scientific they are, can only support the claim that T-50 is good, if it does not, those publications must be very biased against T-50, and thus cannot be trusted.

haha, yeah this is just a forum discussion, not an engineer design team, here you just have people saying what they like according to their bias points of view.

Lockheed Martin knows how to build fighters like F-22, then why they build F-35 that way?

the core of a fifthy generation fighter is the engine, pretty much the Supercruise, Supermaneouvrability and STOL depends on it, Russia is not behind at all from J-20 and F-22.

T-50 flies fast, has a really good radar, a minimun 90km range IRST, the jet has been designed to surpass the F-22 in kinematics, they ditched the S ducts because they add extra weight and the curved S ducts increase the difficulties on air supply.

The nacelles can be modified, they might do it, but it seems they won`t do it, so as long as in Lockheed`s F-35 they are not restricting the stealth of the jet as long as the fighter uses the right tactics.

[video=youtube;QRcHuQaRO4M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRcHuQaRO4M&feature=related[/video]

The rest you can say whatever i know Lockheed won`t change F-35 design because you read air power australia

---------- Post added at 03:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 AM ----------

Let's see, plane was originally be ready in 2010, and mass production in 2012. But let's forget about that.

This is a quote of someone else respond to this article.

So it was ahead of testing schedule for three straight years, but it started testing in 2006. It seem the program was able to meet its testing schedule after Gates removed the JSF Program Manager in Feb 2010, and withheld $614 million in payments to Lockheed because of costs and delays. Then it was said in 2012, in order to avoid further redesign delays, the DoD accepted a reduced combat radius for the F-35A and a longer takeoff run for the F-35B. The F-35B's estimated radius has also decreased 15% from initial JSF goal. It seem now meeting schedule is more important than meeting design goal.

Cost for correcting problems uncovered in testing according to the article is $1.3 billion, that's more than the "development fund" contributed by the six partner countries Italy, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway, and Turkey combined. And this is just to fix design flaws in existing aircrafts, not building new aircrafts.

As for unit cost, I'll give JSF the benefit of doubt that it can come down to approximately $100 million in 2016 and beyond. But still it's not a cheap price. F-35B/C would cost nearly 20% more than the F-35A.

So basically, if you keep lowering the bar low enough, of course it will meet it is goals.
NO other jet can do this now

[video=youtube;Ki86x1WKPmE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki86x1WKPmE[/video]

STEALTH + STOL

can Eurofighter do it?

it does not need an aircraft carrier, it does not need air strips, this jet is a true marvel, with HMS and stealth it will be more stealthy since it does not need long runways.

you can say what ever the USAF won`t stop buying F-35s, niether England or Italy, in fact thanks to PAKFA and J-20 they will sell more
 

Vini_Vidi_Vici

Junior Member
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Somehow T-50 seems like a testing mule to me. "Testing mule" refers to a half finished testing vehicle. For some reason I just feel like T-50 will be further revised. Tell the truth, T-50's air-frame really pathetic for an once mighty technological power-house. That's like Boeing or Lockheed designing a F-15 level jet in 2012. The under-belly of the T-50 looks not too different than Su-30. It still has the 3rd generation uneven geometries, lacking the smooth and flat planes on J-20 and F22.

I personally believe, purely personal (don't count on it), that T-50 is still an early stage prototype. The latter models will look significantly different from the current T-50 model. Similarly on F22, if you compare it to the YF22, it looks very different, almost as different as between YF17 and super hornet.

Russia currently has a very mighty R&D infrastructure, but they're rusty. Either the engineers are too young, which are post-Soviet, or either too old. It takes time to bridge the gap and release their potential. If Lockheed or Boeing stops doing something for 2 decades, even they will be rusty and face extra obstacles. I remember there was a fiasco few years back. The US military (might be supplier, forgot which) has to maintain an old stockpile of hydrogen bombs, but the engineers forgot the recipe for the specific chemical. They had to phone hundreds to people to trace back to one of the original engineers.

If even the live and healthy US military industry had to do this, can you imagine the difficulties faced by the castrated Russian industry?

But I'm sure that the old Russian engineers still have a lot of tricks up their sleeves. The once mighty polar bear wasn't feared by everyone for nothing.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: Consequences of Flanker and PAK FA exports for the PACRIM from US-allied perspect

Somehow T-50 seems like a testing mule to me. "Testing mule" refers to a half finished testing vehicle. For some reason I just feel like T-50 will be further revised. Tell the truth, T-50's air-frame really pathetic for an once mighty technological power-house. That's like Boeing or Lockheed designing a F-15 level jet in 2012. The under-belly of the T-50 looks not too different than Su-30. It still has the 3rd generation uneven geometries, lacking the smooth and flat planes on J-20 and F22.

I personally believe, purely personal (don't count on it), that T-50 is still an early stage prototype. The latter models will look significantly different from the current T-50 model. Similarly on F22, if you compare it to the YF22, it looks very different, almost as different as between YF17 and super hornet.

Russia currently has a very mighty R&D infrastructure, but they're rusty. Either the engineers are too young, which are post-Soviet, or either too old. It takes time to bridge the gap and release their potential. If Lockheed or Boeing stops doing something for 2 decades, even they will be rusty and face extra obstacles. I remember there was a fiasco few years back. The US military (might be supplier, forgot which) has to maintain an old stockpile of hydrogen bombs, but the engineers forgot the recipe for the specific chemical. They had to phone hundreds to people to trace back to one of the original engineers.

If even the live and healthy US military industry had to do this, can you imagine the difficulties faced by the castrated Russian industry?

But I'm sure that the old Russian engineers still have a lot of tricks up their sleeves. The once mighty polar bear wasn't feared by everyone for nothing.

i understand what you say and that has different posibilities.


Definitively the serial version will have refinements, but here is where the explanation can change.

1-This possibility is the Russians will fit later a 2D TCV nozzles type to each nacelle changing the geometry so T-50 will end up with a diferent nacelle, and the intakes will modify the louvers for the auxiliary air intakes with serrate patterns.

2-The T-50 will modify only the louvers but will retain the rounded nacelles and nozzles with just a few refinements in the tailboom as on F-35

To say the Russians did a sloppy design of the T-50 does not make sense, the forward fuselage on T-50 shows they have the mathematical and computer power to make stealth shapes and forms.

Then why they left the nacelles as round as they are?
answer is just they have not the right engine, so they want to test T-50 as a supercruising machine, since the current engine allows for supercruise but adding 2D nozzles will add weight and thrust loses, so they will later on modify the nacelles and add serrate louvers.


This is a possible explanation and the T-50 of 2020 will be a radicall new machine once even a more powerful engine is developed.

or

The Russians think like F-35 designers, the refinements will be only on the louvers, the T-50 will retain rounded nozzles so only the access panels will have serrate patterns so the modifications will be minor.


A third possible solution is they have some new technologies such as plasma stealth, new materials and nanotechnologies that allow for some parts of the airframe to be left rounded without affecting the whole shape if other conventional stealth techniques are applied on other parts of the fuselage.

And a four and last, they have advances in stealth detection that has made them think, the T-50 only should have a minimun of forward shaping for stealth as long as it does not affect performance


In my opinion they have probably opted for the last, it is probable they have new radars and IRST systems or satellite imaginery and detection to reduce the ability of stealth and the americans also know it so they put less effort on F-35 to make it a true mini F-22 with 2D nozzles.


this will explain why the Russians made more efforts on agility and supercruise and why the americans think 2D nozzles are not worthed for F-35 and why they changed the geometries of the prototype JSF, the possibility that new radars detect stealth fighters is very high.
 
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