COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm not saying there is no market for 9-seat abreast wide body airliner. There is but it is kind of crowded. But first, lets set the fuselage and cabin width straight.

Airliner Fuselage Width Cabin Width First Flight
Boeing 767 5.03m 4.72m 1981
Airbus A330 5.64m 5.28m 1992 (A330neo first flight in around 2017)
Boeing 787 5.76m 5.49m 2009
Comac C929 5.92m 5.61m
Airbus A350 5.96m 5.61m 2013

The 8 seat abreast market is not disappearing, Boeing actually plans "New Midsize Airplane"(767 successor, size not definite yet, but should be smaller than 787 for an 7/8 seat abreast economy configuration) to address this market, but the 737MAX debacle, 777X delay and resulting financial struggle is holding them back. And for Airbus, A330 is the 8 seat option, and A350 the 9-seat option.

Airbus/Boeing's timing of new aircraft depends on the time-frame of previous aircraft a lot, so sometimes there is an opening for new player to exploit. Boeing introduced 777 when a lot of old tri-engine jets (DC-10 and L1011) started to be phased out. A350 is positioned as a successor to A340, which started to be decommissioned in early 2010s. Just like 787, with improved fuel economy which enables an exceptional long range for a relatively small aircraft, makes a lot of point-to-point direct route with not that much big traffic possible, is the crucial reason for its success. I believe a smaller C929 (about 5.4m fuselage width) with good range has much bigger market potential than its current configuration. Current 929 should be the next COMAC wide body airliner(C939).
Of course "military utility shouldn’t dictate commercial design, as commercial airliner manufacturers." But it is obvious that some airliners are more suitable for usage as AWACS/tanker platform than others. Boeing does not offer 777 based AWACS/tanker, not because they cannot, but because it doesn't make much sense.
You are right, to airlines, economics is vital and "they care about passenger per fuel miles." But they have to fill their seats first, for 2 airplanes with similar per seat fuel consumption, they usually prefer the smaller one, as they can easily fill up a smaller aircraft. Airlines chose A350 because it is a clean-sheet design with much improved fuel economy, not like A330neo, which is just an old plane with relatively new engines (adapted from engine used in 787, not even newly developed).

You're overwhelmingly focused on cabin width, while disregarding all the other factors at play.

For instance, whilst having a wider cabin than the A330neo and 787, the C929 is slated to have a MTOW of ~248 tons - Which is roughly in the same category as the 787 (~228 to ~254 tons) and the A330neo (~252 tons). Granted, the A330neo is based on the older A330ceo from the early-1990s while the 787 is from the mid-2000s, but the point still stands.

Meanwhile, the MTOWs of the A350 and 777X are ~283-300+ tons and ~350-360 tons, respectively. Both of them certainly aren't in the same category as the 787 and A330neo, let alone the C929. In fact, I certainly failed to see how the C929 is equivalent to the A350, let alone the 777 as you are alleging to be the case. This fact also applies with any potential military applications with the C929.

Speaking of military applications - Airbus just launched the A330 MRTT+ last year, which is based on the A330-800. The A330 MRTT+ is meant as a successor to the A330 MRTT, which itself is based on the A330-200. And guess where do their MTOWs lie?

Plus, if anything - Reasonably larger aircrafts (but not too large like the A350 and 777X) means greater volume, and hence greater carrying capacity. If the PLAAF wants to base their future large-sized AEW&C, AACP, tanker and VVIP transport on a widebody airliner in the future, the C929 is actually a much better platform than going the other way.

Also, the Boeing MSA is still very much stuck on the drawing boards and meeting room tables than to be a meaningful addition into the discussion.

During the covid era, international flight plummeted, freeing up a lot of wide body aircrafts. That's why they are used in a lot of domestic routes. And for some congested airports, wide body airlines are used for short flights, like Japan used to fly 747 in domestic routes. But these are exceptions not the norm. Aircraft manufacturers do not actually target these small markets.

Certainly not, not even in East Asian countries with massive populations, large demand and limited airport slots, where widebody aircrafts frequently being used for domestic flights between major population centers and regional urban hubs have always been the case before the COVID-19 pandemic.

It is precisely because China does have such conditions that the C929 is envisioned with wider cabin and a 9-abreast economy seating design. And given how things are going on with the geopolitical front - China would have a greater demand for such airliners from domestic airlines first-and-foremost than foreign airlines.
 

lcloo

Major
I'm not saying there is no market for 9-seat abreast wide body airliner. There is but it is kind of crowded. But first, lets set the fuselage and cabin width straight.

Airliner Fuselage Width Cabin Width First Flight
Boeing 767 5.03m 4.72m 1981
Airbus A330 5.64m 5.28m 1992 (A330neo first flight in around 2017)
Boeing 787 5.76m 5.49m 2009
Comac C929 5.92m 5.61m
Airbus A350 5.96m 5.61m 2013

The 8 seat abreast market is not disappearing, Boeing actually plans "New Midsize Airplane"(767 successor, size not definite yet, but should be smaller than 787 for an 7/8 seat abreast economy configuration) to address this market, but the 737MAX debacle, 777X delay and resulting financial struggle is holding them back. And for Airbus, A330 is the 8 seat option, and A350 the 9-seat option.

Airbus/Boeing's timing of new aircraft depends on the time-frame of previous aircraft a lot, so sometimes there is an opening for new player to exploit. Boeing introduced 777 when a lot of old tri-engine jets (DC-10 and L1011) started to be phased out. A350 is positioned as a successor to A340, which started to be decommissioned in early 2010s. Just like 787, with improved fuel economy which enables an exceptional long range for a relatively small aircraft, makes a lot of point-to-point direct route with not that much big traffic possible, is the crucial reason for its success. I believe a smaller C929 (about 5.4m fuselage width) with good range has much bigger market potential than its current configuration. Current 929 should be the next COMAC wide body airliner(C939).
Of course "military utility shouldn’t dictate commercial design, as commercial airliner manufacturers." But it is obvious that some airliners are more suitable for usage as AWACS/tanker platform than others. Boeing does not offer 777 based AWACS/tanker, not because they cannot, but because it doesn't make much sense.
You have to look at the complete big picture as suggested by practically all members who replied to you. Clinging to a small segment of the big picture (cabin width and seats) doesn't help.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
C929 specs:

282 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
6500 nautical mile range
247.5 ton MTOW

Compared to its competitor:
B788:

242 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
7300 nautical mile range
228 ton MTOW

B789:
296 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
7565 nautical mile range
254.7 ton MTOW


Personally, I find it odd that a design meant for service nearly 30 years later still can't be competitive to western designs even on paper. I've always heard rumors about people in the industry/higher ups being disappointed in COMAC for being overly conservative and not delivering on promises. Hopefully they make some good design changes to make C929 actually competitive against modern western offering(and the future as by 2035 Airbus might be pushing out the latest A350 iteration same with Boeing assuming they don't scew up) and not decade old designs like how C919 is right now.
 

Xiongmao

Junior Member
Registered Member
C929 specs:

282 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
6500 nautical mile range
247.5 ton MTOW

Compared to its competitor:
B788:

242 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
7300 nautical mile range
228 ton MTOW

B789:
296 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
7565 nautical mile range
254.7 ton MTOW


Personally, I find it odd that a design meant for service nearly 30 years later still can't be competitive to western designs even on paper. I've always heard rumors about people in the industry/higher ups being disappointed in COMAC for being overly conservative and not delivering on promises. Hopefully they make some good design changes to make C929 actually competitive against modern western offering(and the future as by 2035 Airbus might be pushing out the latest A350 iteration same with Boeing assuming they don't scew up) and not decade old designs like how C919 is right now.
Those figures say nothing about how much it costs to run though, which is probably the most important consideration for airlines, not the range.
 

JimmyMcFoob

New Member
Registered Member
Those figures say nothing about how much it costs to run though, which is probably the most important consideration for airlines, not the range.
Range does matter though, as otherwise aircraft would not be able to fly certain profitable routes. See the fate of the Dassault Mercure for an airliner that lacked the range to be useful.

C929 specs:

282 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
6500 nautical mile range
247.5 ton MTOW

Compared to its competitor:
B788:

242 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
7300 nautical mile range
228 ton MTOW

B789:
296 passengers
9 seat abreast arrangement
7565 nautical mile range
254.7 ton MTOW


Personally, I find it odd that a design meant for service nearly 30 years later still can't be competitive to western designs even on paper. I've always heard rumors about people in the industry/higher ups being disappointed in COMAC for being overly conservative and not delivering on promises. Hopefully they make some good design changes to make C929 actually competitive against modern western offering(and the future as by 2035 Airbus might be pushing out the latest A350 iteration same with Boeing assuming they don't scew up) and not decade old designs like how C919 is right now.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the specs of the plane right now, considering it's all on paper. Give it some time, and we can review in a couple years.
 

lcloo

Major
6,500 nm is equal to 12,038 km.
Shanghai to London = 4,963 nm or 9,191 km
Shanghai to San Francisco = 5,545 nm or 10,269 km
Shanghai to New York = 6,419 nm or 11,888 km

I am sure COMAC is using the distance between Shanghai and New York as their yardstick adequate for flight range when they set the design parameter for the size of fuel tank. Fuel tank size can be expanded but that would be a compronise of internal space usage, may be at the expenses of some cargo space.

Extended Range (ER) version of C929, aiming for inter-Pacific Ocean routes can be developed after the standard version of C929.

And also in mid-term, say in next 20 years period, COMAC may not get FAA certificate of airworthiness for C929 to flying to USA.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
6,500 nm is equal to 12,038 km.
Shanghai to London = 4,963 nm or 9,191 km
Shanghai to San Francisco = 5,545 nm or 10,269 km
Shanghai to New York = 6,419 nm or 11,888 km

I am sure COMAC is using the distance between Shanghai and New York as their yardstick adequate for flight range when they set the design parameter for the size of fuel tank. Fuel tank size can be expanded but that would be a compronise of internal space usage, may be at the expenses of some cargo space.
The specs say something about how advanced the design is, for the same MTOW per seat, you get significantly less range meaning either more of that weight is dedicated to structural/systems so less fuel could be carried compared to western designs thus either less composite percentage or less advanced composites used on the other hand it could also be less advanced aerodynamic design or engines hence less range for the same fuel used or a combination of the two factors. Not a good look when the designs it's being compared to is 30 years old by the time it finally enters service. I wouldn't shrug this off as a simple "market decision" considering if they want a shorter ranged plane there no reason for it to weigh as much as a B789.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the specs of the plane right now, considering it's all on paper. Give it some time, and we can review in a couple years.
Hopefully this might be the case, but supposedly they are in the late stages of CDR by now and specs should be mostly locked in.
 
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