COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Marketing doesn't matter. The initial customers will be Chinese airlines owned by the government. Until production ramps up further exports are unlikely to happen.
As for the range, it wouldn't be the first time an aircraft got weight reductions after being designed.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
Marketing doesn't matter. The initial customers will be Chinese airlines owned by the government. Until production ramps up further exports are unlikely to happen.
As for the range, it wouldn't be the first time an aircraft got weight reductions after being designed.
I don't think weight saving is going to save the C929, from @sunnymaxi post C929 should already use more composite(And more advanced composite) than B787 series and could foreseeably have OEW less than B789. It really comes down to the aerodynamics for this range deficit which could only be fixed with a better wing and better fuselage design. IMO, it seems that this project is suffering from the same extreme conservativeness as the C919 project for some reason.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
I don't think weight saving is going to save the C929, from @sunnymaxi post C929 should already use more composite(And more advanced composite) than B787 series and could foreseeably have OEW less than B789. It really comes down to the aerodynamics for this range deficit which could only be fixed with a better wing and better fuselage design. IMO, it seems that this project is suffering from the same extreme conservativeness as the C919 project for some reason.
bro you need to understand one thing.. back then China's industry was really backward, they even rolled back composite wing of C919 due to complexity and went with Aluminum alloy material. this is why they took the conservative approach in C919 development. now with stretch version they will add CFM wings and add new material like composite in main body and aerodynamics will change as well.

COMAC has done the full-scale box section test and verification of the T800-level composite wing of C919 back in 2019
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what i know about C929, it will be a modern and competitive machine as per the design team.. with advance aerodynamics.

i suggest you. please wait for first unit of C929 then we can make some analysis. they just wrote 12,000+ KM range. wait for the actual machine.
 

tphuang

General
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But for C919-100-ER's specs compared to its closest competitor the B737MAX-7(B737MAX also uses less efficient engines because of ground clearance hence LEAP-1B has only a BPR of 9 compared 11 for LEAP-1A/C) has 17 percent less fuel efficiency per seat. Even MC-21-300 with PW1000G is 7 percent more efficient by the same metric which IMO is just embarrassing. C919-100-ER's specs is more similar(4 percent more efficient) to the B737-800 from 20 years ago with much less efficient CFM-56 engines(So, judging by aerodynamic efficiency it is likely the 20 year old 737NG is more efficient). IDK how COMAC stooped this low(How is CJ-1000A still not ready even with clear signs for years that LEAP-1C supply might be cut) especially with a booming military aviation industry in China. Because without some major changes, China isn't going to be competitive with western commercial aviation for decades.
sorry, where did you get these numbers? There has been a lot of confident statement by you here without any actual in service numbers to backup at all. Things like CASK is an airline dependent number based on seat configuration and other things like maintenance cost, aircraft availability and things like that.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
sorry, where did you get these numbers? There has been a lot of confident statement by you here without any actual in service numbers to backup at all. Things like CASK is an airline dependent number based on seat configuration and other things like maintenance cost, aircraft availability and things like that.
They are all public info, this isn't military. Go search it up, all the calculation are done via manufacturer's claim of standard two class layout arrangement, max fuel and range(Hence "stock" configuration from the manufacturer, I didn't specifically choose any airline's own arrangement since as you said each airline has different seating configs). Also note that I didn't comment on anything such as maintenance cost, availability but only per seat fuel efficiency(Not even CASK as that would require accounting all the other cost related) which could be calculated via public specifications.

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Per seat fuel efficiency is calculatable because we know the fact that aircraft manufacturers calculate their aircraft's maximum range via the same standard(Advertised range usually is the range with max allowable fuel and "typical" amount of passengers aka the amount of seat the manufacturer advertises for two class config with basic reserves and ISA, no headwind) and we also have each aircraft's maximum allowable fuel and how many passengers the aircraft could accommodate in a "typical configuration".

But I after rechecking everything, I did realise I made a mistake. B737MAX-7's brochure actually mentioned the seating config used for typical range calculations was actually 138 seats instead of 156 based on this document I dug out:
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Hence C919 actually isn't that much further behind since per seat at maximum range is only 6 percent less than 737MAX-7 albeit still with LEAP-1Bs, but I guess it ain't bad especially with that new composite wing coming online soon hopefully. But the part about C919 still behind the MC-21-300 are still valid, well atleast with their original PW-1000Gs. So, I'll apologize here for not double-checking data and being a bit overconfident.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
I don't think weight saving is going to save the C929, from @sunnymaxi post C929 should already use more composite(And more advanced composite) than B787 series and could foreseeably have OEW less than B789. It really comes down to the aerodynamics for this range deficit which could only be fixed with a better wing and better fuselage design. IMO, it seems that this project is suffering from the same extreme conservativeness as the C919 project for some reason.
Could also just be fuel fraction tbh. I think you’re overthinking this. There’s nothing wrong with the C919’s “conservativeness”. The commercial airline market isn’t a spec sheet contest. Insofar as specs matter the actual number that counts is fuel consumption per passenger mile for a configuration.

They are all public info, this isn't military. Go search it up, all the calculation are done via manufacturer's claim of standard two class layout arrangement, max fuel and range(Hence "stock" configuration from the manufacturer, I didn't specifically choose any airline's own arrangement since as you said each airline has different seating configs). Also note that I didn't comment on anything such as maintenance cost, availability but only per seat fuel efficiency(Not even CASK as that would require accounting all the other cost related) which could be calculated via public specifications.

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Per seat fuel efficiency is calculatable because we know the fact that aircraft manufacturers calculate their aircraft's maximum range via the same standard(Advertised range usually is the range with max allowable fuel and "typical" amount of passengers aka the amount of seat the manufacturer advertises for two class config with basic reserves and ISA, no headwind) and we also have each aircraft's maximum allowable fuel and how many passengers the aircraft could accommodate in a "typical configuration".

But I after rechecking everything, I did realise I made a mistake. B737MAX-7's brochure actually mentioned the seating config used for typical range calculations was actually 138 seats instead of 156 based on this document I dug out:
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Hence C919 actually isn't that much further behind since per seat at maximum range is only 6 percent less than 737MAX-7 albeit still with LEAP-1Bs, but I guess it ain't bad especially with that new composite wing coming online soon hopefully. But the part about C919 still behind the MC-21-300 are still valid, well atleast with their original PW-1000Gs. So, I'll apologize here for not double-checking data and being a bit overconfident.

Just because it’s public information doesn’t mean it’s well vetted.
 

tphuang

General
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They are all public info, this isn't military. Go search it up, all the calculation are done via manufacturer's claim of standard two class layout arrangement, max fuel and range(Hence "stock" configuration from the manufacturer, I didn't specifically choose any airline's own arrangement since as you said each airline has different seating configs). Also note that I didn't comment on anything such as maintenance cost, availability but only per seat fuel efficiency(Not even CASK as that would require accounting all the other cost related) which could be calculated via public specifications.

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Per seat fuel efficiency is calculatable because we know the fact that aircraft manufacturers calculate their aircraft's maximum range via the same standard(Advertised range usually is the range with max allowable fuel and "typical" amount of passengers aka the amount of seat the manufacturer advertises for two class config with basic reserves and ISA, no headwind) and we also have each aircraft's maximum allowable fuel and how many passengers the aircraft could accommodate in a "typical configuration".

But I after rechecking everything, I did realise I made a mistake. B737MAX-7's brochure actually mentioned the seating config used for typical range calculations was actually 138 seats instead of 156 based on this document I dug out:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Hence C919 actually isn't that much further behind since per seat at maximum range is only 6 percent less than 737MAX-7 albeit still with LEAP-1Bs, but I guess it ain't bad especially with that new composite wing coming online soon hopefully. But the part about C919 still behind the MC-21-300 are still valid, well atleast with their original PW-1000Gs. So, I'll apologize here for not double-checking data and being a bit overconfident.

public info again is not all that useful. Airline manufacturers tend to embellish figures. You can take a look at the advertised range for A321LR and see how many airlines actually try to operate routes at even 80% of those stated ranges.

What's useful is what the operator find in practice. There are a lot of things to consider in cost of operation like up time and maintenance cost and such.

From info published by MU (I think), C919 initial cost performance is basically around the same level as A321 and worse than A320NEO. That's not too surprising for a new airliner. Maybe people would find that not to be great, but that's also why I keep saying its more important for COMAC to improve on C909 and C919 performance than C939 or other projects with no demand.

Consider that C929 itself has yet to fly, cost figures are entirely meaningless at this point.

So knock yourself down on a notch. You are not talking to a bunch of noobs here.
 
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